Darth Vader is actually stronger after he gets the armor. Here's why.

In ESB, when Luke and Vader are fighting, Luke hits Vader in the shoulder and the blow is deflected by Vader's armor. If Vader wasn't wearing that armor, Luke's lightsaber would have went through Vader's arm and his upper torso/neck, killing him in the process. So, not only did the armor save Vader's life but it saved the whole trilogy as well because watching ROTJ without Darth Vader is like jumping out of an airplane without a parachute.

 

No armor can stop a lightsaber beam, it's a Luke-spasm that saves Darth-vader.

 

Contrary to popular belief, I've always believed Vader was more powerful by the time of the Original Trilogy than he was in ROTS. If one would pay attention to the actual story at hand rather than the inferior fight choreography of the 70's and 80's, they would agree. The force is a power of the mind... how would his injuries on Mustafar diminish is abilty to tap into the force?

Trust me... had the Original Trilogy been filmed in 2008, 2011, and 20014 I can guarentee you that suited Vader would be doing backflips along with Obi Wan onboard the Death Star.

 

I seem to recall Luke's light saber had no problem going through vader's arm in ROTJ.

Given that the jedi were basically all gone, and vader learned how to absorb blaster fire, I don't think he was that concerned about ever losing a hand to hand battle with anyone.

Vader was more powerful, but it was his mastery of the force. A jedi does not need armor.

 

QFT.

 

What does that mean? QTF?

 

"Quoted for Truth"

 

Butt Edit: Spamming.

 

BTW, I LOOOOVE the sound Vader makes when the lightsaber hits his shoulder. It's like 'khohhwahh!' but much cooler than my typing could indicate.

 

I'll have to watch that moment again, but I always thought it was a grazing hit more than something that would've deeply cut, even had Vader been prancing about naked. Storytelling-wise, I think it's to give you the impression that, if luckly, Luke COULD damage/kill Vader... the hero has to have SOME chance, after all. I suppose it IS interesting how you see just about no consequence of that blow, even to his costume, though.

If the armor DOES help, then Luke's removal of his dad's hand in ROTJ doesn't disprove it... he was cutting through glove at that point, not the same material as Vader's pauldrons.

Personally, I've long since despised the fact that people have associated the flashiness of lightsaber styles to how 'strong' or 'weak' a Force-weilding character is. Look at most of the more mature and establshied members of any martial style. Usually the better the people get, the less energetic and flashy they become. They wait, they maneuver, and they strike efficiently. The ANH duel might seem 'dull', but it's often what you'll see when two older masters square off (and it's not due to age or injury as they guys can otherwise be spry and out do you in energetic activities too). Besides, they were fighting in a cramped corridor, who can blame them for not flipping around? Apparently Lucas, who now just talks about how one is a handicapped cripple and the other is an old guy about to fall over....

So I agree with those who say Vader definitely doesn't appear to be weaker in the OT and if he IS less than what he would've been capable of if he were uninjured and whole, he would've been quite the frightful foe in that case...

and agree with others that Vader doesn't otherwise appear to be weak at all in the OT.

 

yeah, i like that grimiss by vader too. the blow, although weak by luke, did hurt vader, and it pissed him off. one of the best dules in the saga.
Vader is stronger with the force by the time of the OT no doubt. i don't think the suit added to his stregth though. it did protect him from further damage.

 

Note about slicing the hand- Vader wears some kind of leather gauntlet on his hands. His shoulder area has actual armor. and there are a few things that can stop/minimize the cutting effect of a saber blade- spun cortosis ore (shuts it down) and some kinds of silicon armor. There might be a few others as well.

 

Well when Luke slashes off his mechanical hand, it's much more powerful blow than the one to his shoulder earlier.

 

Here's da truth.


Vader - Physically stronger in TPM - AOTC - ROTS

Vader - Stronger in the force in ANH - ESB - ROTJ

 

Notice how fast a lightsaber cuts through a limb versus how long it was taking Qui Gon to get through the blast door in TPM. Though a lightsaber can cut through anything, denser materials will simply take a little longer to cut through. The duel on Cloud City shows this as well. Vader's armor deflected Luke's hit( though it must have gotten through to some extent given Vader's yell of pain) and later Luke loses his hand instantly.

I don't know how much more "powerful" Vader is by the time of TESB, but he is certainly more practiced with the Force, more patient and intelligent, and would wipe the floor with the ROTS version of himself. Well, maybe not so easily, but I have no doubt the suited Vader of the OT would win in the end.

 

This is just wrong.

Suited Vader's additional cybernetics make him physically stronger than Vader in RotS. The strength granted by cybernetics surpases any strength granted by sentient limbs. Thats a fact.


I've been arguing this fact on these boards ever since the nauseating Lucas quote about how suited Vader is weaker. He obviously doesn't appear weaker in the OT, if anything he appears stronger both physically and in the force. Suited Vader's armor and cybernetics give him many advantages over sentient beings. More advantages than disadvantages deffinately.

It just doesn't make any sense that Anakin with only 13 years of training and is only a Jedi Knight would be more powerful than Vader who has studied the force for over 30 years and is a Sith Master.

Suited Vader would make a mockery of little Ani as far as I'm concerned.

 

I agree. I've stated many times that I don't buy this Vader is now weak because he doesn't have his limbs crap, for all the reasons you stated above. But I would like to submit one more to your argument, Juggalo. What a lot of people forget is that Vader has had a natural progression through the force and has gained more power because of it just like any Jedi or Sith would in the 20 years that has passed between ROTS and ANH. Even though Vader lost limbs which could potentially lower his midichlorian count, studying the force and becoming more powerful over time would have easily countered that.

 

I agree also.

I might concede to the argument that Vader lost potential due to Mustafar, although I find even that hard to swallow.

After reading the Dark Lord novel, it basically throws the lost potential thing out the window. In the novel it states that most of the damage done to Vader was emotional and not physical which in turn caused his power to lay dorment. Half of the plot of the novel was Sidious trying to stop Vader from feeling sorry for himself and accept who he has become in order for him to unleash the imense power within him. From the novel I gathered that Vader was still incredibly powerful, but needed to get his self esteem back in order to release it.

At the end of the novel, Vader has accepted who he has become and embraced his destiny. When this happens, Vader becomes a monster and it is stated that his suit feels like a little more than a costume to him.

All this is interesting and slightly contradicting to what Lucas has said in quotes seeing that Lucas had a pretty big hand in what was written in the novel because it was the first novel that was dealing with the purge and the timeframe between the two trilogies.

How do i know this?? James Luceno told me at the book signing I went to in my town.

 

You know I think this is a great desription of Vader, and that somehow seems come full circle. In ROTJ, Vader, after embracing the fact that he accepts Luke as his son and somewhat embraces his past, has become somewhat of a shell of the Sith Lord Darth Vader that he had become. Which once again he realises that the suit he wears is a costume.

I am liking where this discussion is heading, although it is progressing from the orginal point of this topic. We'll see where this goes.

 

Of course he is stronger after he gets the armor on. He has robot arms and legs now. Plus he learns to master the dark side of the force. Those two things make him alot more powerful.

 

Uhh, hey ShroomKing, its me from GF boards.

 

I had heard that Lucas said that Vader was weaker after Sith because he lost so much of his body, and that the midichlorians live in your blood as micro organisms and with less blood to swim through, natrually there were less of them which results in lessened force power. I don't particularly buy that but that is the official word.

 

! I agree! I'll bet there was a line like "why you little...", but that was cut from the script.

On subject: I've always wondered why Luke's saber didn't go through Vader's arm. I always thought a lightsaber was kinda like a real sword: two sharp edges and two er... broadsides (?). Then again, maybe it was Luke that didn't push through. You know, he lashes out, but hesitates during his move, therefore only sratching Vader's shoulder plate.

 

I agree.

Listening to lucas' words is a bad idea, his line about how vader is a weaker cripple is a bit well... stupid.

The only reason i am not 100% sure ESB vader would easily destroy RotS Anakin/Vader is because the suit is a bit of a liablity if facing a force user who can damage it. That's RotS Anakin's only chance though, if he can't damage the suit enough to kill his older self he'd be finished fast.

I also am one who hates the "Flashy = Powerful" crap we've been fed since episode 1, i think it's particularly sad when we consider that from a film stand point the best duels are ESB and RotJ far outshining anything in the PT.

The power control and emotion Vader displays in those duels far outstrip anything he did in the PT...

I guess it makes sense, try as he might to bill them as prequals the PT is really a series of sequals where things get progressively bigger and more powerful. The only option was to show the jedi of the PT as weaker than luke/ben of the OT and that would not have put 'butts in the seats'.

 

Yeah, I definately feel that OT Vader was more powerful than PT Vader. PT Vader may have had more potential, but that potential had not been realized. OT Vader may have had less potential, but he had pretty much reached the limit of his current potential. My friends and I, in an attempt to explain the flashy duels of the PT vs. the slower duels of the OT decided that Vader and Luke were soooo powerful that they didn't have to rely on flipping around all over the place. After all, nobody in the PT is blocking blaster bolts with their hands. (So the hand was metal, a blaster would still normally tear a mean hole through it.)

Carnage