Debate: Did George Lucas direct the final scenes of Return Of The Jedi?

Interesting article at denofgeek (handily stolen from the Amphitheatre):

Ghost-Directed Films

I've thought that the Luke-Vader-Emperor scenes had a very distinct feel to them that was quite different from even the other serious scenes in ROTJ for a long time-especially now that ROTS is out; the scenes of Anakin's seduction and fall, and the ensuing purge, possess a heavy feeling of utter hopelessness and desperation that I think echoes the feel of the scenes in the Emperor's throne room quite markedly. And we know that George directed ROTS, obviously.

I suppose he could just be imitating ROTJ in general, but George doesn't typically do that-AOTC and TESB do not feel like the same film quite deliberately-heck, even the basic structure between them is different. About all those two have in common is a love story-and even then the love story in each couldn't be more different. So, yeah, George doesn't just flat-out imitate films from other directors.


Anyway, thoughts?

 

There's far less to this theory than is being put forward, true or not. It's well-known that GL was over Marquand's shoulder for much of ROTJ, even directing some second-unit himself, just as Gary Kurtz directed some second-unit on SW & ESB.

When the whole concept of who 'directed' a film comes up these days, it's complicated by the position that auteur theory put forward back in the 1960s - that it's the director who is the true 'author' of a film. Simple fact of the matter is that it's not as simple as that. It never has been.

Back in the 1970s, when GL did begin his space saga, American cinema, in the glorious period known as New Hollywood, embraced auteur theory, giving a new-found freedom to young writers & directors, like Lucas, Coppola, Scorsese, Bogdanovich, you name them. However, this period was far more short-lived & far less free than is often believed. The young Turks had their own difficulties with the studios, as most here will already know regarding the recuts of THX-1138 & American Graffiti.
Ultimately, the people with the money were still calling the shots, they were just a bit more willing to take few risks - for a while.

When the New Hollywood period collapsed, due to both the huge successes of traditional box-office fare like Jaws & Star Wars, alongside the failures of more 'creative' projects like Friedkin's Sorcerer, Altman's Nashville & even Scorsese's masterpiece Raging Bull, Hollywood went back to business as usual. The producer was king once again, the director was only there to point actors in the right direction, get enough coverage, & bugger off once the shoot was done.

It's not quite as cut & dried as that, but Marquand's role on ROTJ was very much the same as a film director in the Hollywood of the 1940s. Everyone remembers that it was David O Selznick who produced Gone With The Wind - who remembers the director?

 

^ That's true, but that doesn't totally address the point that these scenes really do feel different from most of the rest of ROTJ... and even mirror the feeling of ROTS. I agree with what DarthBoba said below, and I've heard these rumors before too.

 

We will have to wait for the Making of Return of the Jedi book in 2013

 

I'm inclined to attribute all that to an inconsistency in the writing, not the directing. It was GL trying to have the best of both worlds - a deep, intense climax involving Luke, the fallen angel & the devil, while also having exciting, uplifting action sequences going on at the same time, ultimately ending in a 'happily ever after' conclusion.

There's very little else in the film to compare the Throne Room scenes to, so without that, it's hard to say whether Marquand was capable of handling those scenes. Did GL also direct the scenes on Dagobah & the first meeting between Luke & Vader, i.e. the 'deep' portions of the film?

No matter how they're directed, scenes involving Ewoks belting stormtroopers with sticks are always going to feel different to anything involving Darth Vader's struggle against the Dark Side while his sinister, 100% evil master dares father & son to kill each other.

The only argument being put forward is "The stuff with Luke, Vader & the Emperor in ROTJ is really cool, the rest of the film is rubbish, so they must have been directed by different people."
George Lucas managed to direct a lot of rubbish in the prequels as well - fart jokes, cow tipping & some really awkward love scenes - any conspiracy theories about any of that junk actually having been directed by the Farrelly Brothers?

 

For some reason I know this - it was Victor Fleming. Amazingly, he also directed The Wizard of Oz. He's almost totally forgotten now.

 

Maybe this part of the old special: "From Star Wars To Jedi" l will clear it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjGe-xNhv4A

In a Starlog interview with Sebastian Shaw, the actor who played old Anakin, he said Marquand directed his death scene.

 

Those both came out in 1939. Absolutely amazing. Has to be the best directorial year in history.

 

It may well be the case that Lucas directed Vader Funeral Pyre scene. I know it was shot very late in the process up at the ranch (or so my memory tells me). So its likely Marquand wasnt flown in for that alone. I imagine Lucas directed this bit himself, as well as some second unit stuff here or there, as others have suggested. If he did anything beyond this, we dont really know. Its possible. But until evidence backs it up, its all speculation. Maybe we'll get that Making Of book someday to clear it up once and for all.

As for the throne room scenes being great? Well I think we can put that as much down to the wonderful Ian McDiarmid as we can whoever directed them. And I seem to recall it was Lucas who gave McDiarmid licence to make the character his own in exactly this way (which was of course different to how it was portrayed in ESB).

 

Check out 5:30 of this video taken from the OT DVD features.

I'm sure that's Marquand saying action at the beginning of a take in this scene which is my favorite moment in ROTJ and one of my favorite moments in all the Star Wars movies.

This partof the "Empire Of Dreams" Making of documentary doesn't really clear up how much oversight Lucas had.

 

It'll likely never be revealed while Lucas is alive. He is classy enough not to make claims of a person who isn't here to defend himself. If the same is true of Red Tails, we may never know. If I had to guess I'd say the latter is that he directed the re-shoots and designed the dog fights.


When we getting more info on Red Tails? ....geeeze

 

Debate: Did George Lucas direct the final scenes of Return Of The Jedi?

Sure, I can see him having directed things like Leia saying "He's my brother" as if Han's an idiot for not knowing already - and the Country Ewok Jamboree.

 

It's more logical to assume that the stuff filmed later on in production (the california stuff) is where Tomblin and Lucas had to step in and pick up the slack, to get the movie done in time. Marquand would have been able to handle the throne room stuff more than most scenes in the movie since it's mostly 3 people talking. Also I believe that anything filmed in London was pretty strictly monitored (who is doing what) by their unions. (Frank Oz once made a point of saying that Marquand directed Yoda's death scene. In fact, it was Marquand who insisted on Yoda having a death scene in the first place.)

 

How could Han possibly have known that already?

Anyway, this little bit of trivia from the IMDBpage of Alan Hume JEDI's cinematographer Alan Hume who died last month is interesting. Hume was a friend of Marquand and lit his previous two movies "The Legacy" and "Eye of the Needle" and would photograph what turned out to be his last "Hearts of Fire".

Had a falling out with the producers of Star Wars Episode VI Return of the Jedi (1983) because he felt they were mistreating the director, the late Richard Marquand. He was never officially sacked, but the photography during the last month was handled primarily by his assistant Alec Mills.

 

I think that may have been what Kershner was referring to in that 2004 interview.

 

Thats not what JKH is getting at, I don't think. Its the attitude of Leia who appears to believe Han should know they're siblings already.

But I think this has been misinterpreted. Leia believes its clear to everyone who knows them that Han, Luke and Leia all share a great bond and indeed "love" each other. So when Han asks the question "you love him dont you?" she doesn't think for a minute Han is implying it to be a romantic affection, even though he is - hence her surprise at the question. She thought it was obvious they all loved each other (certainly as companions and long-time friends beyond anything else). When it becomes clear to Leia Han is paranoid that Luke is a romantic threat, she dismisses this with a smile and then to prove such a thing could never be the case and to set Han's mind at ease, she decides to tell him the truth about them being siblings.

In fairness though, I can see why its suggested that Leia looks a bit foolish in the style of her revelation. But I dont think its a glaring oversight - she knows Han isnt yet aware of them being brother and sister... she is simply surprised that Han could be jealous of Luke and think he was a romantic rival (regardless of him being her sister).

 

Once again, the whole drive of this debate seems to be predicated on the fact that Richard Marquand was a poor director, & I've yet to see any evidence that he was. Based on his CV, he wasn't exactly an auteur along the lines of Kubrick, Coppola, Welles, Fellini, Lynch, etc - most likely he was an old-school gun for hire, who was just as capable of doing the job as anyone else.
I've worked with a number of talented directors in TV who simply treat it as a job, & they tend to be the ones who get the best results on such franchised productions, as opposed to pretentious idiots who try to take the product & make it their own.

GL's directorial credits post-1977 aren't exactly shining - they're non-existent until 1999. The reaction to his return to the director's chair was mixed, to say the least.
Given the problems most have with the PT, while hailing Kershner's contribution to ESB, I find it strange that so many are willing to attribute all of the 'good bits' of ROTJ to Lucas, while blaming Marquand for everything that made it the poorest part of the OT.

GL most certainly directed parts of ROTJ (he admits to doing some 2nd unit, just as Gary Kurtz did on SW & ESB), the rest of the shoot he was over Marquand's shoulder anyway. Trying to take away Marquand's credit for doing the hard yards on the primary shoot is simply unfounded fanboy gibberish.

 

Yeah, I liked Eye of the Needle and Jagged Edge. A lot of my favorite scenes in Star Wars is from JEDI, like all the Emperor scenes.

There's a great fan made documentary on the making of ROTJ on YouTube that features stuff taken from various sources. It's very thorough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdH12otbLFw.

Part 14 shows both he and Lucas discussing something with Mark Hamill during a scene in the Ewok village.

 

If you pay attention to who's been posting in this thread, the people advancing "Lucas did the good stuff in RotJ" are the ones who really like the PT and tend to play up Lucas's contributions to TESB, while the people you're talking about above are in here defending Marquand.

I'm not making any value judgments here; I'm just noting that people ARE being consistent.

 

Hey, I'm one of those who like the PT and think they're some good stuff in it. I still think Marquand should get the majority of the credit on JEDI.

 

Actually, I wasn't referring to any particular posters in this thread, more to the broad culture of GL/PT bashing that tends to pop up on movie sites these days, now that the PT is behind us (e.g. the recent interview with Gary Kurtz). Most conspiracy theories about SW seem focused on taking as much away from GL as possible.

FWIW, I try to stay on the fence where possible & just look at the facts - & there aren't any solid ones in that 'Ghost-Directed Films' article.

 

That's true, but that doesn't totally address the point that these scenes really do feel different from most of the rest of ROTJ... and even mirror the feeling of ROTS. I agree with what DarthBoba said below, and I've heard these rumors before too.

If you're going to use rumors to make your case, it's also been rumored that Lucas was not originally happy with Marquand for casting McDiarmid in that part. In fact, from McDiarmid himself, he'll tell you he was originally told not to deviate too far from the portrayal in ESB, but that ocne he started doing his own thing, the filmmakers backed off.

The mood of those scenes was the result of collaboration among Marquand, Lucas and Kasdan in how those scenes should play out. Contrary to popular belief, such nitty-gritty details were not all planned out by Lucas, but made up and production went along. As the prequels are in effect a mirror image of the originals, it should not be all that surprising that there are parallels. That Lucas delegated writing and directing to others is of little consequence; he still wanted scenes in the prequels to follow their lead.

And let's look at the timing here. The first scenes shot for ROTJ were shot on studio sets in London. McDiarmid was only there for a few weeks at most. Yet there is footage of Marquand on-set in the California redwoods, where production wrapped. So he was clearly involved. And if anyone can point to evidence from the DVD set that Marquand was sacked or put on the back burner, I'd like to hear it. I've listened to the commentary and never hear Carrie Fisher mentioning any such thing.

 

It has? I've never heard that one.

I'm sure I read (though admittedly I don't have the source to hand) that he was encouraged to make the part his own.

Well in fairness, those commentaries are heavily edited and Fisher has very little to say in the final cut about anything.

 

I'm sure I read (though admittedly I don't have the source to hand) that he was encouraged to make the part his own.

I have the interview in the 1998 Star Wars Insider in which he talks about being given the ESB scene to study. From his much longer interview that was shown at Celebration III, and later posted on starwars.com, he says that at first they were going to dub over his voice if it was too dissimilar from ESB, but later then filmmakers listened to his portral and decided they liked it.

Well in fairness, those commentaries are heavily edited and Fisher has very little to say in the final cut about anything.

Is this you, instead of presenting evidence, making excuses for the lack thereof?

 

Uhmmm all I'm saying is that reasoning "I never heard Carrie Fisher say it in the commentary" isn't exactly a credible method for proving certainty such a thing didn't happen. Its no method at all. Now I dont disagree with your belief that Marquand likely directed most, if not all of the picture (I can only assume he did because, as you correctly point out, there's zero evidence to the contrary). But one cannot say he definitely did merely because of Carrie Fisher's lack of revelation to the contrary where a) what we hear from Carrie Fisher in ROTJ's commentary is minimal and clearly not concerned with going into too much depth & b) its heavily edited anyway, so even if she were to state such a thing, I would find it odd they would leave such a thing in there as a rather flippant revelation. The topic here is "Did George Lucas direct the final scenes of Return of the Jedi". From memory, in the commentary track, Carrie Fisher is left with zero to say after Luke leaves the Endor village to confront Vader. So whatever she did have to say about the final scenes we'll never know unless we one day hear her isolated commentary (though here's hoping with the blu-ray we might get that option)