Saga Did Anakin really redeem himself?

ROTJ suggests Anakin redeemed himself when he sacrificed himself to save Luke. However, it occurred to me this redemption was not quite as great as it presents itself.

Did he really redeem himself though? By this question, I mean did Anakin actually change from his old ways as Vader?

The answer is Anakin did not change at all.

In ROTS, Vader betrayed his ally (Windu) to prevent his family member (Padme) from dying.

In ROTJ, Anakin betrayed his ally (Palpatine) to prevent his family member (Luke) from dying.

He makes the exact same decision, and somehow he's now good because the person he betrayed happens to be the villain this time!

Way to go, Chosen One. We are all quite proud of you.

 

It seems though that Anakin simply might not care if the person he betrays is good or evil. All he seems to care about is protecting his family. His selfish attachment to his family was the goal, and defeating a villain was a byproduct.

Now, helping family is important, and none of us truly knows what we would do if our family were in danger. Nonetheless, the issue remains.

The OT implies Luke helped Anakin reclaim the good inside of him, the good that, according to Luke,the Emperor had not driven out fully. However, if he behaves exactly the same as he did when he betrayed Windu in ROTS, then did he really reclaim anything?

 

There he stands up there on Mt. Forcemore. Looks like he passed the redeemed test to me. Not sure if there's a way to appeal it, other than make him look younger:

 

As the OP points out, Vader's... er, M.O. may not have changed (and yep, both moments were rooted in a desire to 'save' a loved one, too). But Lucas would probably point out the differences in Skywalker's motivations (Anakin's fall precipitated by an act of fear and driven by selfish love in ROTS, versus a sacrificial act of selfless love in ROTJ).

 

^ Exactly! I'd even go as far as saying that the mirroring of Anakin going bad/good by betraying his Master to save a family member was most definitely intended. By creating two similar situations where one is driven by greed and the other by compassion, he effectively highlights a fundamental difference between the natures of good and evil - from his point of view

 

Frankly, I don't buy all this "I just did this all to save a loved one (Padme)" excuse. IMO that was just a smokescreen to justify his actions, and it became obvious on Mustafar that it was power he wanted. All along I would add.

In ROJ he really wanted to save someone (his son) even knowing it would cost him his own life. Thus, I do see the difference between both actions.

 

That is the point and the case. Your actions define your reasons. When Anakin became Vader, he did it because he put his own needs ahead of the entire Jedi Order, his wife and the galaxy. When he saves Luke, he is doing it to save his son at the expense of his own life and everything that he has ever believe in as an agent of the Sith and the Empire. And in point of fact, he is able to become a ghost because he does this.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

"You learn that Darth Vader isn’t this monster. He’s a pathetic individual who made a pact with the Devil and lost. And he’s trapped. He’s a sad, pathetic character, not a big evil monster. I mean, he’s a monster in that he’s turned to the dark side and he’s serving a bad master and he’s into power and he’s lost a lot of his humanity. In that way, he’s a monster, but beneath that, as Luke says in Return of the Jedi, early on, “I know there’s still good in you, I can sense it.” Only through the love of his children and the compassion of his children, who believe in him, even though he’s a monster, does he redeem himself."

--George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

Not quite.

"The thing that breaks Padme's heart in the end is the fact that Anakin says to her, 'Come and join me. I have all the power now. I can rule the universe and you can do it with me.' So the idea of saving her life has become a minor issue. And that's when she says, 'Wait a minute. This is not what I want and you're not the guy I fell in love with!'"

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 52.

It was about what he thought was right, which was saving her life. But it changed as he went along and became more and more powerful. Now it was about doing the things that he wanted to do, before all of that. That's the price of power and greed.

 

It's not the same at all.

In ROTS he did the Sith thing and was driven by selfishness and greed to have the things he wanted to remain with him to stop things from changing. He sacrificed everything else for himself.

In ROTJ he did the Jedi thing and was driven by selflessness and giving to others. He let go and didn't fight the change. He sacrificed himself for everything else.

This is the ultimate difference between the Light (selflessness, letting go and flowing with the Force) to the Dark (selfishness, hanging on and raging against the Force).

He finally became the Jedi and Chosen One that he was always supposed to be and always was. It's just that it came about in a way that no one could have ever thought possible.

 

I see your points. I think you guys have partially convinced me. In ROTS, he did not want to lose Padme for selfish reasons, but in ROTJ, he wanted Luke to live for selfless reasons.

ROTS Anakin: "Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."

ROTJ Anakin: "Now go, my son. Leave me. You were right. You were right about me. Tell your sister, you were right."

 

You should also consider how Palpatine manipulated him from the start. He lied about knowing how to save Padme, he tricked Ani into mistrusting the Jedi, he engineered events so that Ani would move against Windu, and he lied about Ani killing Padme. From that perspective, Palpatine broke faith with Anakin first. Thus, Ani owed him no loyalty, meaning his action wasn't a betrayal at all. It was Palpatine getting what he deserved from someone he wronged.

And, as has been previously noted, Anakin's last action was selfless, rather than self-serving. I seriously doubt he expected anything other than damnation for his actions, but he accepted his fate, as long as Luke was alive and Palpatine's evil was stopped.

 

Did he? He said he knew the dark side and that if Anakin embraced the dark side he could, at some point, save Padme. Was this a lie?

How do we know this is a lie as opposed to something Palpatine believed to be true? In any event, how would Vader be in a position to know one way or the other? Does he act like someone who knows he's being lied to?

 

Palpatine said he could show Ani how to save Padme, the obvious implication being that he knew it and would share it. Then, like the con artist that he was, after Ani was in too deep he said that he was sure they'll find the secret, basically saying he never had it and dangling the possibility of finding it to keep Ani in line. As for Padme's death, look at Palpatine's expression when Vader blows a gasket. He's got a triumphant smile, because now he knows that he's got Vader locked up forever (or so he thinks). He may not know for certain if it's true, but he's making it seem so.

Let's not portray Palpatine as a victim of betrayal. You can't betray someone who didn't trust you or play straight with you from the beginning.

 

Kenneth Morgan wrote

It was Palpatine getting what he deserved from someone he wronged.

Hence the original film title Revenge of the Jedi, which was just changed to "Return" six months prior to its release.

But still it remains somewhat ambiguous how much of Anakin's actions were motivated by "revenge" and how much by "return".

 

Well, Anakin sure thought so, and that's all that matters.

"You were right about me", means he's released himself.

 

No, he said "Know the power of the dark side" and "Use my knowledge". He never said that he knew how to do it. Ever. Palpatine keeps telling Anakin that he needs him alive in order for Anakin to become a master of the dark side and then they could work on saving her. The Jedi Council won't teach him how to use the dark side and there is no one else who can do so, other than himself. You, like a lot of people, misunderstood what he said.

 

He's making it seem like he knows for certain that it's true? How does that equate to Vader "knowing" it's a lie?

 

Did Anakin really redeem himself?

yes. Simply put.

 

I'm not saying Vader "knew" he was lying about Padme, though we know that he did. But, over the years, Vader could certainly piece together the clues that Palpatine had conned him over other things, like the whole "keep people from dying" thing. He may very well have suspected that Palpatine had also not been fully truthful about Padme.

Like I noted, Palpatine is a top notch grifter. He doesn't plainly say he knew how to do it, but the implication is certainly there. "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi." It certainly sounds to me like, "You help me, and I'll get you what you want." Add in the look on his face, and we're not talking about fatherly advice or altruism. He's making a clear offer, and it won't come cheap. And, in the end, I'm sure Vader realized he'd gotten the GFFA equivalent of a bill of sale for the Brooklyn Bridge.

 

^^
Also, in the ROTS novelization, when Palpatine flat out tells Ani that Plagueis was his Master. it throws back to Palpatines: 'He taught his apprentice everything he knew' speech. Implying that Palps knew how to prevent people from dying and would tell Ani/Vader at some point.

 

How do "we" know that?

It is only your assumption that Palpatine "conned" him. No such thing has been proven. What do you assume would happen over the years to convince Vader that this was the case?

He consistently says that Anakin will be the one to do it as opposed to doing it himself.

Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force and you will be able to save your wife from certain death.

Were he in fact suggesting that he had already achieved the power himself, it would seem simpler to just offer to do the deed himself.

 

We know Palpatine was lying because we saw Padme die and heard the reason: she lost the will to live after seeing everything she loved and worked for turned inside out and wrecked by the people she respected and highly valued. Over the years, as Palpatine's lies became more apparent, I'm sure Vader would start to question everything he'd been told. His wanting to overthrow and replace the Emperor came from more than just Sith tradition, I'd say.

And Palpatine was clever not to just say, "Join me and I'll save her." Ani wanted a life of significance, the ability to be a hero and save everybody. He wanted to be the one to save Padme. So Palpatine fed Ani's ego as part of his con, since that's what con artists do: focus on a person's habits or flaws and use them to get what they (the con artist) wants. Besides, if Palpatine really did discover how to defeat death and live forever (and he didn't discover it), would he really share that knowledge with Ani? With anyone? Certainly not.

 

"I have the power to save the one you love. You must choose."

 

Kenneth Morgan wrote

Besides, if Palpatine really did discover how to defeat death and live forever (and he didn't discover it), would he really share that knowledge with Ani?

How old was Palpatine really? This question is constantly on my mind. He apparently had some shape-shifting capabilities, and I wouldn't be surprised if he were much, much older than usually assumed.

 

Like others have pointed out, he did redeem himself. He wouldn't have been able to become a Force Ghost without doing so. That doesn't mean he has corrected his past mistakes, but rather he had a genuine change of heart.