PT Did Anakin/Vader care at all that the Clone War was a complete lie?

After he found out that Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, and after he found out that Padme was dead, was there any part of him that felt pissed that the entire Clone War was a lie and that a bunch of his friends were killed for nothing?

I'm sorry if this sounds like a dumb question, I just like speculating about this stuff.

 

In the EU book The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, he tells himself that this was one of the reasons he was going to overthrow Palpatine, after the galaxy has been properly united:



In fact, he hadn't killed the Jedi to serve Sidious, though Sidious was meant to believe just that. In his arrogance Sidious was unaware that Anakin had seen through him. Had the Sith Lord thought he would simply shrug off the fact that, from the start, Sidious had been manipulating Anakin and the war?
No, he hadn't killed the Jedi in service to Sidious, or, for that matter to demonstrate allegiance to the order of the Sith.
He had executed Sidious's command because the Jedi would never have understood Anakin's decision to sacrifice Mace and the rest in order that Padmé might survive the tragic death she suffered in Anakin's visions. More important, the Jedi would have attempted to stand in the way of the decisions he and Padmé would have needed to make regarding the fate of the galaxy.
Beginning with the assassination of Sidious.
Oh, but on Mustafar she had worked herself into a state over what he had done at the Temple, so much so that she hadn't heard a word he was saying. Instead she had made up her mind that he had come to care more about power than he cared about her.
As if one matters without the other!
And then cursed Obi-Wan had shown himself, interrupting before Anakin could explain fully that everything he had done, in Palpatine's office and at the Temple, had all been for her sake, and that of her unborn child. Had Obi-Wan not arrived he would have persuaded her to understand—he would have made her understand—and together they would have moved against the Sith Lord …

 

I think the better question is: did he know at that time that Dooku was operating under direct orders of Sidious and not starting a war on his own?

Because for all he knew, Dooku could have been another Maul situation.

 

I don't think it's a dumb question. In universe answers are bound to be speculation; nothing wrong with that. I think the best answer is that Anakin/Vader, since he viewed the Jedi as corrupt/evil, felt any action against them was justified, and he was bringing greater order to the universe at the same time. Killing Jedi younglings? Justified. Creating a war to grab power (from the corrupt Jedi)? Justified. Lying and manipulating and taking control of the galaxy? Justified. And his friends ceased to become his friends, as they were all part of the evil system. His wife was cheating with Obi Wan, even though he loved her he had quite a lot of jealousy to deal with there. He becomes a different person, and his values and relationships are accordingly realigned.

The out of universe explanation is that the OT, including Vader, was created without much thought as to what Vader's motivations were or what the Clone Wars were. Everything we see in the prequels, except for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side (in general) and his wounding at the site of a volcano, was created for the prequels, just to get us to the guy in the suit. There was no backstory as we now know it when the OT was written (despite certain George Lucas statements); this leads to questions like yours and is IMO, a huge problems with the prequels and a retcon of that size. All the stuff that turns Anakin into Vader is basically forgotten right after he becomes Vader. OT Vader was not conceived as thinking of Padme or having been promised the secret to eternal life by the Emperor. I'm taking this info from 'The Secret History of Star Wars,' btw, which is an almost exhaustive account of how the scripts and stories for Star Wars came together, from draft to draft.

 

Yes, because he knows that Dooku is a Sith Lord and that Darth Sidious is his Master. So he is aware, but he intends to use Palpatine and then when he is done, he will kill him. That's why he told Padme that he can kill Palpatine, so that they can rule together.

 

I disagree that OT Vader wasn't conceived as thinking of Padme or wanting the secret to eternal life. Now granted, there was no indication of such things back when there was just 1 Star Wars film but when the Empire Strikes Back came along and we were all hit with the "I am your father" controversy, you could see that there were actual hints that Padme's fate may have contributed to Vader's fall to the dark side. For starters:

-When Luke is about to hop on his X-Wing for his trip to Bespin, Obi-wan says to him, "It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer. Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost Vader."

-After Luke finds out Leia is his sister, Obi-wan says, "Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

And

-During Luke's final duel with Vader in Return of the Jedi, Vader says to him, "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends."


Based on the following dialogue, it's obvious that Obi-wan witnessed Vader go through the same situation Luke went through when he thought Luke's mother was in danger. Then, the Emperor learns about Vader's relationship with Padme and took advantage of his fears by telling him the same thing Vader told Luke about the dark side being able to save Padme. The fact that she's not in the OT speaks volumes that Vader learned the hard way that the dark side didn't save her like he thought but instead of killing the Emperor like he should've done, he continues to serve him due to his injuries from his fight with Obi-wan. On top of that, Vader tries to trick Luke the same way the Emperor tricked him.

 

Obvious? I don't see that...seems more like conjecture to me. Where is anything about saving loved ones through the Force in what you quoted? The saving your friends bit was not about Luke using/learning Force powers to extend/perserve their life but rather the Empire sparing some Rebels as a mercy given his allegiance. What you are doing I would call eisegesis...you are inserting ideas into the text rather than looking for what ideas are already there. (Which is fine from a speculative point of view...have fun with it! But I find it a great stretch to say it was always there.) There is plenty of story logic in Vader offering mercy -- 'back down, join us, and your friends will be spared. Continue to fight us and you will all die.' There is not much logic (or respect for the context of the dialogue) in what you are saying that I can see. The point of ROTJ was to finish the story and conclude the trilogy. It was about wrapping up loose ends and having the protagonists succeed in their goals. Luke turns his father to the Light Side, defeats the Emperor by proxy, and wins a great moral victory by refusing the (broadly speaking) temptations that seduced his father. The Rebels destroy the second Death Star and Han and Leia are free to pursue their relationship. This is the main goal of the story, to tell us how the heroes succeeded. There is nothing wrong with a retcon, but it is a retcon to say 'well, the story was really about Vader.' Some buy that, that's fine, I don't. He grew to occupy a more central part of the story (which is perfectly fine), but Luke, Han and Leia are THE protagonists -- they are the ones struggling to achieve their goals and they do so.

As to the second quote, more story logic applies. The thrust of the story is that Luke is supposed to complete his training, to learn patience and to be master of his emotions, not to let emotions master him. He is supposed to overcome rashness, impatience and impulsiveness like his father (isn't this what Yoda warns him about?) His friends are held as a trap. Vader knows that Luke will come to save them. His hope is that Luke, will surrender to his impatience and not being ready for Vader, will be easily defeated both physically, emotionally and morally and thus more easily turned to the Dark Side.

And to the first quote, I don't see where Padme fits in there. (She is also not mentioned in any of your quotes, the only mention of her we get is Luke and Leia's dialogue about what they remembered of their mother. Vader never says anything about his wife, does he?) Again, we have a classic villainous trap. If a villain can't hurt a hero, he/she will threaten the vulnerable family members or loved one's the hero cares about. Any good person can be manipulated in this way, although it probably happens almost entirely in fiction. But to read a 'possessive love versus compassionate love' there is another huge stretch, IMO. Luke's chief struggle by ROTJ is to defeat (or strike a great blow) against the Empire and to achieve the moral victory of mastering his own emotions (fear, anger, hate, resentment, impatience). Would I be correct in assuming that you think the PT is a completely successful graft or continuation to the OT?

In my post, I attempted to address the shortcomings of what I see as a retcon that didn't fully work. I'm not attempting to spoil the fun of those who enjoy the prequel story. I think the idea that many PT elements were planned at the time of the OT to be mistaken, but if you believe that and want to speculate about mythology as if that were a given, you're welcome to do so. I just find it a satisfying conclusion to see the missing story elements as part of a retcon that weren't logically airtight in every respect.

 

Yes of course he cared. He was extremely angry when Palpatine revealed himself. If there were no war and no direct consequences of Palpatine being a Sith Lord, I think shock would have been a better word to describe his reaction. But the anger in that scene was definitely fueled by the realization that the war was a lie.

 

In my opinion, he was more concerned about Padme than the war. When Padme died, so did Anakin and Vader could not care less.

 

I think this speaks for itself:

Palpatine: "Are you going to kill me?"

Anakin: "I would certainly like to."

Anakin's pissed at this moment. He wants to cut Palpatine down right then and there for basically manipulating and causing the most destructive war the galaxy had seen in a thousand years. It was only with more "You must save Padme!" that he backed off.

 

Just because Padme wasn't mentioned in any of the quotes, it doesn't mean that Vader didn't go through the same problems Luke went through. For the first quote, a villainous trap was still set and Emperor Sidious didn't have to harm Padme to trick Vader into becoming his apprentice. All he had to was pretend to be a friendly politician so that none of the Jedi would suspect him of being an evil sorcerer whose staging a fake war as a way to destroy them. Then, he would gain Vader's trust and fake his own kidnapping so that Vader would come to his rescue and be forced to battle the Emperor's previous apprentice. Finally, upon sensing Vader's fears of losing Padme from childbirth, the Emperor would blackmail him into joining the dark side by telling him the same thing Vader told Luke.

For the second quote, Vader too had to complete his Jedi training, learn patience, and be the master of his emotions. Even without relying on the prequels, we all know Vader failed to do that because he didn't have the inner strength or moral fiber that Luke has. Plus, Vader allowed his anger and greed to get the better of him to the point where he becomes "more machine now than man". Lastly, the fact that Vader died saving Luke's life is enough to indicate that he tried to save Luke's mom at some point but he failed which is why Anakin became Darth Vader in the first place.

For the third quote, it doesn't matter if someone is being held hostage or you're being offered the secret to eternal life. The point is both Vader and Luke were put in the same situation where they're forced to choose whether or not to give themselves to the dark side and in the end, Vader chose to turn while Luke did not. As for question on if I think the PT is a successful graft or a continuation of the OT? I believe it is both.

 

Well, I agree that both Anakin and Luke were tempted, and that temptation has to do with moral fiber, but I don't see any Padme DNA in the OT. How does Vader's dying for Luke indicate anything in ROTJ about a figure we've never even heard Vader mention? You are free to insert that in retroactively but I don't see that communicated in any way in the film itself.

Are you switching positions with regard to the third quote? You cited it as evidence that Padme was imagined...not as evidence that Vader and Luke were tempted by the Dark Side. Yes, we agree they are tempted, as I said. I just don't think they're tempted in the same way. (GL says Anakain is 'greedy' whereas Luke is tempted to give in to fear and hate and slay the Emperor.) We don't agree that Padme (or could we just say the mother character as she was probably not named then) was conceived of as part of Vader's thinking in ROTJ and that's okay.

 

I take you back to the moment Luke finds out Leia is his sister. Obi-wan says to him, "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew as I did... if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."

No matter which female character George Lucas picks as Anakin's love interest, she would be the key to Anakin's turn to the dark side as well as being the mother of Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia. Emperor Sidious would not want this woman or her child to live for they would interfere with his plan to convert Anakin as his Sith apprentice. As long as they're alive, not only will they sway Anakin back to the light side (which is what eventually happened in Return of the Jedi), her and Anakin's child has the potential to be more powerful than the Emperor himself. A lot of fans believe that Emperor Sidious planted the visions of Padme's death inside Anakin's head as a way to exploit his fears and to convince him that turning to the dark side is the only way to save her but in reality, the Emperor knew that Anakin himself will be the cause of Padme's death. Vader's dying for Luke was his way to make up for his fatal mistake with Padme, especially upon learning that Leia is his daughter.

How could Padme not be a part of Vader's thinking? The moment Vader read Luke's thoughts and discovered that Princess Leia is both his daughter and Luke's sister, surely Vader would have Padme on his mind. This discovery is one of the main reasons why he kills the Emperor and gets himself killed in the process.

 

I don't agree and I think you are reaching a bit.
The most crucial thing you overlook is that RotJ taken on it's own strongly suggest that Luke and Leia's mother SURVIVED.
Leia has memories of her mother while Luke does not. The most obvious reason for this is that Leia lived with their mother for a while but Luke lived on Tatooine.
And if we include the script there are lines that make it super obvious that the mother didn't die until some years AFTER Anakin had turned.
So Anakin's turn had little to nothing to with the mother and she died some years after this.

Given the dialogue in the film and the script, it seems that Anakin turned but he didn't know his wife was pregnant. So she gave birth, Luke was hidden and she lived on Alderaan while Leia was presented as Bail's adopted child.
The mother lived on for a few years and given that Leia said she "DIED" not "was killed" it seems that her death was not by Vader's hands. Nor does it seem that either Vader or Palpatine had any interest in her. Since they were ignorant of any children, this wife was not interesting in herself.
Leia said her mother was sad about something and this could be her thinking of her former husband now being evil. But it could also be her missing the son she had to give up.
As for Vader, given that he apparently left her alone, his connection to her was not all that important to him.

Problem, Palpatine's plan to turn Luke is nothing at all similar to how he turned Anakin.
As you said, Palpatine played the part of a friend to Anakin. To Luke he was nothing but an enemy.
And with Anakin he kept stroking his ego and saying things that would please Anakin.
To Luke, Palpatine says basically "Get angry, try to kill me and you'll become my slave."
Palaptine's plan to turn Luke was just about getting Luke mad, mad enough to kill in hate.
He offered him nothing except slavery.

If he used this method with Anakin he could have Shmi captured and made Anakin watch the Tusken torture her to death and goad Anakin to get angry.

Vader does try to offer Luke something to make him turn but Palpatine does not.

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I don't think so.
Why he kills the emperor is that he doesn't want to watch his son die.
He does care for him, he does love him and that love and care was strong enough to break his hate.
Plus he had seen Luke refuse the Dark Side and thus showing him that it could be done, he does still have a choice.
Now one can imagine that Vader lost Padme and that loss still hurts. Here he has a product of the love he had with Padme and he has a chance to save it. So he doesn't just watch Palpatine kill Luke, he stops him.
But he has let go of his hate and he has also let go of his desire to cling to life.
He knows that stopping Palpatine would surely mean his death but that was a prize he was glad to pay if it meant that Luke would live.
He stopped being selfish and become selfless.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I don't know, early on, maybe, but say, by the time the Death Star was complete, I doubt that Vader/Anakin cared much about anything anymore.

 

all of the information didn't come to him at once., but basically at the end of ROTS all he's left with is the dark side. All his friends and what he believed in are gone. He can either ...kill himself....or carry on and hate enough and learn enough about the dark side to try to restore his body.

 

Vader's anger gives him strength. Sidious wanted Vader to be mad. Sheev probably gave him bits of information and allowed him to put the pieces together slowly in his head.

 

It's important to keep in mind that, while Anakin of course felt initially betrayed upon learning that the Clone Wars were a sham, it would have been relatively easy for him to later rationalize the ruse as being a necessary evil to ensure the greater good of the galaxy in the long run. Remember, Sidious was never really in league with the Separatists anyway. They were simply pawns in his scheme to become the strong, wise leader who could save the dying Republic by reforming it into the Empire. One of the first things Sidious has Anakin do upon being christened Vader is to go to Mustafar and kill them all. I'm sure Anakin/Vader liked that.

 

I disagree because Vader wouldn't have been so hellbent on searching the galaxy for Luke if he didn't have a connection with Padme. As a matter of fact, Luke represented the life Vader once had as Anakin which includes his love for Padme and even if she had survived past Episode 3, Vader is not going to pretend that he doesn't have any feelings for her anymore no matter how far he's fallen to the dark side. Besides, if Vader and PalpSidious are so ignorant of Padme's pregnancy, how the hell did they know that Luke is her son in ESB or that Anakin is the father of her son? The moment Luke blew up the Death Star, he instantly put himself on the Sith's radar and neither of them would've given a damn about Luke if he was just a random pilot and in no way related to Vader at all. Anakin's turn could still have something to do with Padme because her absence would've caused him to believe she was either kidnapped or killed (similar to how Luke reacted when he had visions of Han and Leia in danger). Like Luke, Anakin would want to find and save her while Obi-wan would try to forbid him from doing so by telling him the same things he told Luke. Then, PalpSidious will quote the same "Give yourself to the dark side" comment that Vader told Luke and the rest is history.

The one advantage Luke had over Anakin is that he didn't have PalpSidious as his "friend and mentor" since childhood. However, if PalpSidious had told Luke that Vader killed his mom, he would've succeeded in making Luke kill Vader thus completing his turn to the dark side. As for what PalpSidious had to offer Luke, he was offering him power, prestige, and the lives of his friends and the rebels.

While I agree with everything you just said, I still believe that the knowledge of Leia being his daughter gave Vader the extra motivation to become more selfless. He knows how much pain he caused her and added with the sight of Luke being electrocuted by the Emperor's lightning, Vader knew that if he didn't save Luke now, he will die and the Emperor will soon go after Leia next since he now knows about her after hearing Vader talking under the stairs. This is what prompted Vader to sacrifice himself in the end...not just for Luke but for Leia as well.

 

Vader does not need have to have a connection to the mother of Luke for him to be interested in his son.
Maybe the love he once had cooled and he was no longer interested in her.
That happens in the real world, fathers that no longer love the mother of their children but they still love their children.
Given RotJ and esp what was in the script, the mother of Luke and Leia lived on for some years and Vader, apparently, didn't feature in her life after she gave birth.
So since nothing indicates that her death was somehow faked, Vader would know that she lived but neither he nor Palpatine had any interest in her.
So what ever feelings he had for her, they were now gone.
Padme being kidnapped? Where is that suggested?

The script makes it clear that Vader left his wife, not knowing that she was pregnant.

From this it is clear that Vader wasn't interested in his former wife anymore. The children were another story and thus Luke was hidden and Leia was presented as the daughter of Bail.
That Vader's wife was on Alderaan does not seems to have been a secret and sicne Vader didn't act on it, she was a concern of his anymore.

How they knew that Luke was Vader's son?
They knew that the MF carried Obi-Wan and he came from Tatooine, where even in just the OT, Vader/Anakin had relatives. If they find out the name of the rebel that blew up the DS, which wouldn't be impossible for imperial spies, they would know it is Luke Skywalker.
Owen and Beru, don't have the Skywalker name, Luke does. Plus Obi-wan is connected to Luke and trained him.
Add that Vader/Anakin did have a wife that he presumably did have some nooky with and the conclusion is not hard to see.
Luke is Vaders son.

Luke put himself on the Sith radar as the one who blew up the DS and Vader could sense that the Force was strong with him.

First, Palpatine doesn't offer Luke the lives of his friends, he is instead gloating about how they are all going to die and that Luke can't do anything to stop it. Vader is the one who makes that offer.
What prestige? Luke by now has seen that Vader is nothing but the emperors slave, his lapdog that has no free will and has to do whatever his master commands.
Not very attractive and that is all that Palpatine offers, become his new slave.

Second, in RotJ as it was written, Vader didn't kill his wife, Luke's mother. She lived on for some years and died, not was killed. So her death is not by Vader's hands. And Luke knows this.
So if Palpatine said that, it would just be a lie.

Third, Luke knows full well how evil his father is. He has seen and felt it first hand.
Dragging up some other event from the past isn't likely to change anything.

What does cause Luke to flip is when Vader threatens Leia.
That makes him really mad.

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Well this is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I don't fully agree but you make a good point.
He does mention Leia after Luke has taken off his mask.
But did Vader know that she was even alive?
The rebels on Endor were walking into a trap. If there was a fight, she could die.
Did the troopers have orders to capture the rebels and not execute them?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Anakin: So you were in league with Dooku this whole time. This whole war was a farce.
Palps: you think all Sith know each other? That's racist.

 

The novelization indicates that Luke feels Leia's pain from being shot and Vader picks up on it. So he is aware that she's alive when he pushes Luke's buttons. Afterwards, he is apparently aware or believes that she is still alive, which is why he says, "Tell your sister". What is unclear is if he knew that she was Leia Organa, when he was still alive. Neither the film, nor the novelization support that. He only knows once he has become a ghost and sees them together, with the implication being that Obi-wan told him.

 

In short, no. Anakin was dead. Vader could have cared less.

 

Did he even know that? If he did, I don't think he would care. Once he became Vader, he was pretty much resigned to being Palpatine's right hand man and left his old life behind.

 

It was odd that he never questioned it? He was a smart guy, it must've crossed his mind?