Did Anakin's slaughter of younglings make it hard for you to 'forgive' him in ROTJ?

If this thread is repetitive my apologies, please move to proper place or delete.

As I watched the PT unfold, I always had Anakin's eventual redemption in ROTJ in the back of my mind (as did most people I assume). None of Anakin's acts seemed unforgivable to me (not even the slaughter of the Sandpeople, as that was sort of a temporary insanity type of thing), UNTIL he slaughtered the younglings in ROTS. At that point I was torn. I thought, "how can I ever forgive this guy?! He killed children!". It made it hard for me root for his redemption. Now obviously that's the story and nothing can be done to change it, but I found myself wishing that that scene never took place. Did anyone else have these types of feelings about the youngling slaughter? Any thoughts...?

 

I've seen comments along these lines before, and I don't get it. If you were surprised that the younglings to be killed in a Jedi eradication, then you didn't understand something. Every single Jedi had to go. Personally, I thought that the clones should have taken care of the kids, while Vader concentrated on the adult Jedi, but I guess he had time to do both. I guess it was mainly Lucas showing that Vader is willing to do anything for Padme. But back to the main point, I don't even think the little kids would be surprised that they were going to be killed like the other Jedi. Because they are Jedi. And if they were surprised, then Palpatine was right in saying that the Jedi take their VICTIMS at such a young age where they cannot make an educated choice. I don't see a difference between Vader killing Cin Drallig and Vader killing a group of younglings. There all Jedi.

 

I had no problem forgiving Anakin, because I had known long ago that if there were Jedi children, they too would've been killed. Anakin killed a lot of people as a Sith. Children are no different, even if it is considered taboo. In the end, Anakin truly repented for his ways. He was forgiven by Luke for all of his crimes and even the Jedi Masters chose not to hold a grudge against him. How is Anakin any less forgiveable for killing children, when he had killed grown adults. Death is still death. Murder is still murder. If you could forgive him for the adults, then you can forgive him for the children. It would be, in my opinion, contradictory to let him pass on one and not the other.

Another point is that these children were being trained to become Jedi. Thus they had to die.

 

I found it a little harder after I'd first seen RotS, but I fairly quickly realized that the ability forgive isn't really supposed to be limited by the actions of the one who needs forgiveness, especially not when he'd already comitted worse atrocities on film.

 

I wasnt suprised that they were killed. We all knew they were going to be killed. I'm not really talking about it from that angle.

I'm just really looking to discuss weather or not Anakin's slaughter of them made him unforgivable.

Having the clones do it would have been an easy way out of the situation. I often wish it went down that way.

 

How is he unforgiveable for killing children, as opposed to adults? As I said, murder is still murder no matter how old you are. If you can forgive him for killing adults, then you should be able to forgive the death of children.

 

To me, killing children is vastly different than killing adults. Especially when the adults are trained warriors who are no strangers to battle.

 

These children were being trained to be warriors and were given Lightsabers. They may not have gone into battle, but they're being trained to fight as Jedi.

 

Good points.

I also guess another way to look at is, if every bad thing Anakin did was minor, he wouldn't really need 'redemption'...

But even still, it's tough.

 

Yeah, but a 6 year old (or whatever) doesn't really know what is going on. He can't be expected to make life or death decisions. He can't be held responsible for those training him, or those around him. Or what he will (or won't) be when he gets older.

 

There's just something about killing children. It's like a whole different level, IMO. It's one thing to shoot an adult, still wrong, but to me anyone harming a child should immediately be done away with because children are so innocent. Not that an adult can't be innocent.

 

so arming children is ok but killing them is just plain mean, come on guys, if you cant take the heat dont sign up to be a jedi. seriously i feel you guys on the killing kids thing, but Palpatine was spot on when he said they needed to kill em all, nothing nice about war.

as far as forgiving Vader, shoot, why would i ever need to forgive the most !@#@%% @#$@%# $&$&%$ in the whole saga, forgive him? i never stopped loving him. and if any of you stopped loving Vader i have one thing to say to you...
"You are part of a rebel alliance and a traitor"

 

I thought Anakin was a gullible fool up until the younglings scene. After it, I wanted to kill him with my own two hands. Innocent children were dying because that selfish idiot couldn't see past his own impulses and fears. Children are children, whether they have Jedi instruction or not, and since none of them really had a choice about joining the Jedi, you can't expect them to understand the dangers involved. They were obviously helpless; they had no chance. There is no excuse for what Anakin did. Anyone with a shred of decency or compassion would have refused; Anakin was weak and corrupt, and he murdered dozens if not hundreds of innocents all because of a vague promise from a proven liar. That scene definitely makes his redemption harder to accept, not because of that act alone, but because it throws all his other actions into much starker relief. Luke might have been able to see him as redeemed, but I'm not Luke.

 

But you see, if left alive, those younglings can grow up and attempt to topple an Empire. That's what Palpatine and Vader are worried about, when those younglings grow up and come back as adult Jedi. They had to go. And if they didn't understand the dangers of being a Jedi, then Palpatine was on to something when he said that the Jedi take their victims at a young age where choice is pointless and these kids are taken advantage of. So if the younglings don't understand the dangers of a Jedi while a galactic war is going on and the Sith are about, that is the fault of the Order. Obviously it would have made more sense for the clones to engage the younglings, but perhaps Vader felt doing the worst of the worst would further cement him within the power of the dark side.


Edit: and to answer the question in the thread, it doesn't make it harder to except Vader's redemption. Of all Vader's actions in RotS, what bothered me the most is when he Force-choked Padme. He went to the dark side to save her and then turns around to choke her. Right there, Vader should have asked himself, what the hell am I doing?, but of course, we know that Darth Vader was always in Anakin's heart from the begining. Vader's Vader. He's different from Anakin. I see them almost as two different people. Vader died, and Anakin came back in RotJ.

 

For some reason, I always kinda expected it. When Alderaan blew, I'm sure there were children there, like, in the millions. And when the Younglings were introduced in AOTC, I thought to myself "Crap, he's gonna kill them." Since he was a major factor in exterminating the Jedi, and the Jedi include children into their ranks, it became an unfortunate part of the equation. Personally, I would have preferred troopers storming the temple and blasting the kids, but to Lucas' credit, he did the ROTS scene in a tasteful and deliciously evil way. He let implication tell what happened when we weren't able to watch.

 

I understand Palpatine's reasons for giving the order, I just question Vader's decision to carry it out. I don't think Anakin gave a fig about Palpatine's plan for galactic domination at that point; all he cared about was saving Padme. He murdered innocent children to achieve that end, which makes it much harder to view him as an essentially decent person. I'm glad you brought up his choking Padme, I had forgotten about that. It really kills any sympathy I ever had for his motivations.
As for the Jedi taking children at a young age, I've always disliked that practice. The Jedi Order needed some serious reform.

 

PALPATINE: "Because the Council did not trust you, my young apprentice, I believe you are the only Jedi with no knowledge of this plot. When the Jedi learn what has transpired here, they will kill us, along with all the Senators."

ANAKIN: "I agree. The Jedi's next move will be against the Senate."

PALPATINE: "Every single Jedi, including your friend Obi-Wan Kenobi, is now an enemy of the Republic. You understand that, don't you?"

ANAKIN: "I understand, Master."

PALPATINE: "We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless; if they are not all destroyed, it will be civil war without end. First, I want you to go to the Jedi Temple. We will catch them off balance. Do what must be done, Lord Vader. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy. Only then will you be strong enough with the dark side to save Padme.

This was a test for Anakin. Once he kills these children without any hesitation, he will be embracing the dark side. He will then have what it takes to find the secret to save Padme. If he were to hestiate, Sidious will know and then deny him his teachings. As to these children knowing what's going on, they do.

YOUNGLING: "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them. What are we going to do?"

They know what's going on. They are being attacked and they've been put in there for their protection. What they don't know is that he will be slicing and dicing. But for every evil act he committed, there is one thing that was always true about Anakin. He was once a good man and that he still had some goodness left. It just became lost in a sea of emotions and power.

 

Anakin is the bad guy.

UKS

P.S The Dark Side corrupts. Nothing it makes you do is justified!

 

There was like 10 younglings in there with lightsabers, yet Anakin didn't have a scrath on him, pfft. They should have taken him out

Anyway, in ANH, an entire planet was destroyed, how many kids do you think were there

 

Are you serious? Vader's mastery of the Force is a million times better than those younglings. 10 younglings with lightsabers are nothing compared to Vader. If he's engaging Cin Drallig and both of his apprentices at once, 10 younglings are not going to bother him.

I agree. Plus, Vader feels the impact through the Force like Obiwan did. For him to ignore it and possibly even take joy from that, shows how evil Vader has become.

 

I guess I really never thought about it much because ther was so much other more interesting stuff going on. Also, Lucas, who is usually the most visual, most unsubtle drirecotr in history chose not to actually show anakin kill them.

Now, i know anakins burning alone made it go to pg13 and you cant have too much agresseive content in a star wars film, so i cant really blame him.

But as I think about it now, him killing the younglings would have so much more impact if you actually saw the look on their faces before they died. It truly would have transformed him into the reuthless vader we had known.

 

I'm kind of suprised to discover that some find the killing of children who are in the beginning stages of being trained in the ways of the force to be morally equivalent to killing full-grown adult Jedi Knights...

Maybe it's my differentiation of the two that causes me to have trouble forgiving Anakin for that. Interesting. Makes sense though. I wonder if I am actually in the minority on this one (which would have suprised me at first).

I appreciate all the feedback.

 

Very well said UKS.

 

Anakin Skywalker is only forgiven for one thing: becoming Darth Vader.

Darth Vader is never forgiven.

 

Another interesting look at it. Good stuff.