Did Jacen's "sacrifice" of Mara really count? Did he refuse his "true" sacrifice? Did Mara go dark?

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The events surrounding the Death of Nelani Dinn:

In BETRAYAL, Jacen listened to Lumiya and killed Nelani, a defenseless Jedi, just in order to prevent a series of events that would lead to Jacen killing Luke. Jacen was told by Lumiya (only to be the first of many times) how he must now sacrifice what he loves the most. Sith keep themselves in check and connected to the "average people of the galaxy" by making sacrifices and feeling true pain, that is the cost of being a Sith according to Lumiya. The first time he heard this, he instinctively thought he had to kill his daughter, Allana, and the mere thought that he would have to do that seemed to drive him insane.




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The events surrounding the Death of Mara Jade Skywalker:

In SACRIFICE, Jacen (who decided he didn't have to sacrifice Allana or Tenel Ka, just someone he loved) was trying to convince himself that it would probably be Ben he had to kill. To get away from the stress of the sacrifice and his new job as Chief of State, Jacen went to Hapes to have some time alone with Tenel Ka and their daughter.

Mara, who had been on to Jacen and afraid he'll sacrifice Ben, follows him Hapes. When she fires on Jacen, at first he thinks it's Lumiya, who he'll now have to kill for knowing about Allana in order to protect her. Lumiya had followed him and found about Allana, but it is Mara who's attacking him, and she actually does not know about Allana, but Jacen thinks she does and realizes he has to kill her.

Jacen then defends himself and lures Mara to the underground caves, where they each brutally fight one another, both of them doing it solely thinking only about protecting their precious child. The Sith Ship saw Lumiya, Jacen, Mara, and Ben all equally as Sith apprentices, using the darkness.

Jacen then succeeds in killing his aunt Mara in self-defense, and he feels that she was his sacrifice, making him a Sith Lord. Even though he never really felt any personal pain from killing her (even though he should have, being his aunt, the one he nearly died saving from Lomi Plo just 5 years before), Jacen thinks she must have been his sacrifice. Jacen is relieved he didn't have to kill Ben, or Tenel Ka, or Allana. Even thought it was more self-defense than deliberate sacrifice. It makes you wonder if Mara would have fallen to the dark side if she succeeded in killing Jacen...

Jacen then changes his mind, saying his sacrifice was NOT Mara, but "Ben's love" for him that he'll miss and never regain when he discovers the truth behind his mother's death. He then takes the name "Darth Caedus." (He later rethinks what his sacrifice was yet again, rationalizing to himself that killing Mara meant the sacrifice of all his family bonds and his family's love for him. Jacen then rethinks what the sacrifice means yet again, now justifying it as the fact his daughter Allana will not fully love him when she realizes the monster her father has become.)

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The events surrounding the Death of Jacen Solo:

In INVINCIBLE, Jacen Solo remembers the driving motivation of his life is Service, to make the galaxy safe for Allana and all the children in the galaxy. He re-emerges as a much more confident and deadly, unpredictable but cool and collected, Dark Lord of the Sith. During the final battle, the Moffs reveal they want to use the nanokiller to target the Hapan flagship "Dragon Queen," with Tenel Ka and Allana on board, to wipe out the Hapan royal family and win the war.

Jacen thinks of this, then has a vision of an adult Allana befor

 

An interesting question really is how much the "Sacrifice" actually is required to be a Sith Lord. There's a lot of positive and negatives required from all the various different sides of the Dark Side of the Force's history in the Star Wars universe.

Here's a brief listing of the Pros and Negatives that I see, I'll cite them so there's no confusion.

Negative

1. Darth Bane

Darth Bane doesn't have anyone that he cared for. He killed his father with the Force but that was accidental and well into the early part of his life. Darth Bane became a true Dark Lord of the Sith mostly because he said he was and everyone was too scared to say otherwise.

(DB: POD)

2. Exar Kun

Eventually killed Master Vodo Bass but that was well after he'd been crowned Dark Lord of the Sith by Marka Ragnos. At that point, Exar Kun's closest "Sacrifice" was murdering Freedon Nadd. A man that he hated.

(TOTJ: TSL)

3. Ulic Qel Droma

Killed his own brother but that was when being Dark Lord of the Sith ENDED. The only thing that showed he was genuinely corrupted was turning his back on Nomi Sunrider and possibly killing Satal, another point where he hated the man in question.

(TOTJ: TSL)

4. Darth Zannah

The murder of her cousin doesn't seem to have been that much of a milestone for her. Instead, she's just been genuinely treated as a sociopath from the moment Darth Bane started educating her.

(Rule of Two)

5. Darth Krayt

It was Darth Krayt's tutelage under Vergere that transformed him into a Dark Lord of the Sith from what I understand (I don't have any confirmation---does anyone?). By the time he was a Sith Lord, he had already lost everything he cared about.

(Legacy)

Positive

1. Darth Maul

Had to sacrifice his love and respect for his master before he was a true Sith Lord (Darth Maul Journal)

2. Darth Vader

Had to turn against the Jedi Knighthood before he was acknowledged by Palpatine as a true Dark Lord of the Sith. He also ended up murdering Padme but he seems to have done this accidentally more than anything else.

(ROTS)

3. Darth Tyrannus

Dooku was known to have murdered his good friend, Sifo-Dyas.

(Bounty Hunter: Open Seasons)

Undecided

1. Darth Revan

We don't know what exactly he sacrificed, if anything to become a Sith Lord. Ditto his Master and Apprentice.

I'm inclined to say that "The Sith Sacrifice" is actually not a firm part of being a Dark Lord. Rather, instead, it is just a test that is imposed by the reigning Dark Lords of the Sith in order to determine just how far someone is willing to go before they will give into the Dark Side of the Force.

 

Jacen was nuts. His sacrifice didn't count. There was no sacrifice required. Lumiya made that all up.

Sith keep themselves in check and connected to the "average people of the galaxy" by making sacrifices and feeling true pain, that is the cost of being a Sith according to Lumiya.


Complete LIE. When did Palpatine ever care about the feelings of people? he USED them, didn't appreciate them, it's how he manipulated. The cost to the people for trusting Sith is always death. See: Jacen.


There was something wrong with Jacen we haven't' learned about yet.

Mara was always somewhat dark IMO, she always killed with impunity and enjoyed it. Yet I have to say she also was written OOC. Mara was written as though she were estranged from Luke, like their marriage was in trouble or something. There was no basis for this rift. mara lying to Luke, lying to Leia. She would never do that.

It was not the best written series, let's put it that way. It still leaves me scratching my head.

 

The Jedi Knights are a strange bunch when it comes to assassinations. Despite Bastila Shann's statements to the contrary, the Jedi Knights have sent a couple of kill missions out into the galaxy.

1. General Grevious (ROTS)
2. Darth Vader (ESB & ROTJ)
3. Lord Hoth's Army of Light

I think Mara Jade was acting appropriately to destroy a Sith Lord. It may be self-defense but Palpatine was acting in self-defense against the Jedi Posse in his office yet absolutely was the bad guy.

 

My understanding of the whole "Sith Sacrifice" is that it depends largely on the prostective Sith in question. If the candidate is someone like Jacen who has pre-existing attachments which he or she hasn't severed, then the sacrifice would be required to demonstrate the depths of their commitment, as well as being a symbolic murder of their old identity so they can be reborn as Darth Whoever. Someone like Krayt (who gradually lost everything he ever loved) or Bane (who never really loved anything in the first place) wouldn't have to do this because there is no attachment competing with the Sith Order- even if they're sent to kill someone as a test of loyalty, it wouldn't be a real sacrifice. It also depends on the whims of the master in question- Lumiya wanted to destroy Luke's world vicariously through Jacen, and Palpatine is just sadistic that way. By contrast you have Marka Ragnos, who just wanted somebody to carry on the Sith Empire, and Bane's masters, who wanted to churn out as many new Sith as possible rather than concentrating on breaking one person.

So in all I think you have to take into account the character of both apprentice and master to judge if and when a Sith Sacrifice will be required. to address the original question, I believe that Jacen's sacrifice of Mara did count because he killed, in cold blood, a family member he knew well, liked, and respected. Besides, as soon as Lumiya's out of the picture Jacen's now the reigning Sith in his 'order', so he can do whatever he wants and call it a sacrifice if he feels like it. He clearly considers himself Darth Caedus from that moment on, and since he's the reigning Sith Master his opinion on the matter is the only one that counts.

 

Actually, Lumiya said making sacrifices would be essential to PREVENT Jacen from becoming the next Palpatine, whom Lumiya agreed was an evil *******. So apparently not all Sith make sacrifices, but it's essential to keep the Sith from being corrupted by the dark side. Which was Jacen's main reservation with learning the ways of the Sith in BETRAYAL.

 

Except that all Lumiya really wanted was revenge.

 

My reaction is that is complete nerfshavit either way. Darth Plagueis asked Palpatine what he loved so he could take it away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWvc7O4jzQk

 

You honestly believe Lumiya? She's trying to corrupt Jacen, who doesn't want to be the next Palpatine, so she phrases it in terms to make it look like one can be a Sith without becoming the next Palpatine. I don't think anything a Sith says in their sales pitch can be taken at face value- remember, Palpatine pretty much promised Anakin that he could save Padme, when this was not only a power he didn't possess, but one he wouldn't be inclined to use even if he did. My reading was always that Lumiya's out to hurt Luke and is using Jacen as a tool to do it- everything else is just dressing it up to make it look pretty.

 

I actually prefer what Troy Denning (or was it Aaron Allston) said that Lumiya was being sincere she didn't care about hurting Luke anymore. Jacen was all about reviving the Empire. There's something poetic about the fact that her revenge against Luke Skywalker was something she no longer cared about but was all she got.

 

I agree that Mara's death allowed Jacen to get over his "mental roadblock" and truly embrace being a Sith... until he is faced with the choice between victory or Allana's life.

The authors actually said numerous times that Lumiya really did beleive in the Imperial vision, and did not want revenge.

(Although if she did want revenge, she would have definitely felt victorious on that front too, which is why I think Lumiya is one of Star Wars' best villains.)

 

^Huh. I'm not sure how I much I like that idea, simply because it seems out of character for a "true" Sith like Lumiya to want to build something constructive in the first place. I like fallen Jedi characters who embrace the Sith ways to try and bring order to the galaxy (A'sharad Hett, Revan, what I think they were going for with Jacen) and wind up becoming what they hate, but trying to do something positive seems utterly at odds with true Sith philosophy, which is pretty much supreme selfishness. And there's something wrong about a Sith who is straight up and utterly sincere, without half-truths and double meanings. Then again, these are the same people who tried to pawn off Vergere as a Sith when she was pretty clearly a Vong-influenced Jedi, so I'll take it with a grain of salt.

 

The authors have said that Lumiya wanted to restore the Galactic Empire and establish order throughout the galaxy. I don't think that really means anything else, other than she's of the same mind as Darth Krayt as to what Sith should do.

I prefer that to her wanting revenge against Luke.

 

Usually I'd agree but we got her POV in Sacrifice and it genuinely seemed like she wanted to see the Sith back rather than revenge. Which is ironic since her Sith plan failed badly and she accomplished nothing but pain for the Solo/Skywalkers.

 

Vorgon poetry?

I believe the intention was to make the Sith POV "understandable". The theory in itself could be convincing - law and justice are meant to be totally objective, and Spock sez "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", so having talented people act totally objective should - theoretically - work. "Not enjoying the job" by sacrificing what you love is also meant as a control mechanism, which again makes sense.

It's actually an elaboration on the allusion that Palpatine only did what he had to do in order to save the galaxy from the Vong. Plus explaining everything "evil" away as Palpatine's shotcomings.

It's a nice theory that would eventually produce strong keepers of the peace that wouldn't even have to be cold, emotionless robots.

It also runs against most of what SW established. You would really need to squint really hard to see Palpatine's actions in any way as a peace movement and not as the foundation of everything that went wrong in the first place. And if you take Sidious away, and if you take what Sith do in the movies away, how do you still get a "superior Sith philosophy"? It's something else, not what we see in the movies. The "not enjoying the job" catch is fundamentally not what the "I'll do what I want" Sith are about. It's something else entirely.

And Jacen's sacrifice? That was decided (and defined) OOU, then made little sense and was excused by the justifications Jacen was made to think of IU (but which, of course, all originated OOU). So just let it rest until the next retcon comes along. Until then, the following puts it best:

And people use to say that Lucas is ruining the franchise...

 

One of the funny things is that you can spin fiction any way you want; Jacen (half-consciously) refusing to sacrifice his child when accepting a fake-sacrifice gives us exactly what Lumiya didn't want to achieve: another Sith who can't keep his desires in check. Caedus then going mad and power-hungry (like Palps) actually makes the most sense with this kind of meta-reading.

It doesn't explain, though, why so much of Jacen's/Lumiya's actions was totally hare-brained even before the sacrifice.

And anyway, I don't think one should always interpret the novels in meta-reading. If I have to pay for making up the plot myself, I'll write fan fiction and buy myself a drink afterwards .

 

I think Mara's death was significant based on the fact that it hurt more than just one person around Caedus. He loved the admiration that Ben had for him, and killing Ben's mom sacrificed that. Jacen enjoyed his Uncle's respect and approval (at least at some point) and killing Luke's wife sacrificed that. Finally, Mara was Jaina's master, so it hurt Jaina too, even thought they don't go into that super seriously.

As for Mara going dark, I think that her final hours really were quintessential 'Mara'. I always saw Mara as a good jedi who knew how to balance between what's "right" and getting the job done. I don't think she was dark, and if she was, I think that's just who she was then, someone that could operate on the shady side if need be.

 

I think that the "sacrifice" wasn't as much Mara specifically as it was taking a step that couldn't be rescinded. Something that, once done, couldn't be undone. You essentially sacrifice your former self and take the Sith "Darth" title.

Anakin was the face of the Jedi order in the Clone Wars, he sacrificed the Jedi, starting with Mace Windu, and became Darth Vader.

Jacen while not the "lightest" Jedi, always tried to do the will of the force. Once he started down his dark path, he stopped doing the will of the force and started imposing his will on the force. Mara was the tipping point, where Jacen did things that couldn't be forgiven.

It doesn't work in some situations, particularly for Sith-from-birth like Maul, but I think the sacrifice is more about sacrifice the person you were, in order to become Sith.

At the same time the road to being Sith isn't a set one, despite what Lumiya said.

-The Rebel Gungan

 

That's not what I got from reading Survivor's Quest. When the Empire of the Hand made her nostalgic about her old life, she felt guilty about feeling that way. There were a few references in VOTF about her being uncomfortable with her past. So she has some regrets about killing people.

The sacrifice idea is crap anyway. I don't know much about how others became Sith but Palpatine was able to lure Anakin through his unwillingness to sacrifice people he loved (particularly Padme). I do think Padme's death got rid of an important roadblock to ensuring Anakin's full service to Palps though.

 

I think she enjoyed it. She was in her element when fighting. She refer to herself as "the ultimate predator". It could have been bravado or arrogance but she seemed pretty gleeful to fight in DNT, throwing force lightning (a darkside talent, no matter when people say and what color). What I thought was interesting is that Mara was actually WEAKER, whenever she went aggressive and dark. She had more more power in the force when she was good and pure. It's very ironic that one forced into service of the darkest man ever to live is weakened by the darkside, and strengthened by the light. She died somewhat in the dark, and that wasn't worthy of her.


As for the darkside itself, it goes after your weakness. Pride (Dooku), insatiable greed for control and power (Palpatine), arrogance and overconfidence (Anakin), fear and paranoia (Jacen). Ever the weakness which is varied as the people that weild it's seductive and insanity causing powers.

 

How could fighting someone like Darth Caedus be dark?

 

He's Jacen. Wimpy Jacen, with mental probelms. Someone she's known since he was a newborn. Someone he's known his whole life. It is somewhat dark to want to kill a nephew. Since the whole "fall of Jacen" makes no sense to me, I can't really see it from that angle. What Mara would have done in character was told Luke that Jacen was in cahoots with Lumiya, not leave Luke asleep with a note. Mara didn't even bring her lightsaber, she wanted BLOOD. She had been plotting Jacen's murder, which is not Jedi like. It's something that could have been handled much better esp in a collabrative way.

 

Yes, but we have to see it from the angle that Jacen Solo was already a murderer of Jedi and a would-be Sith Lord. He's certainly fallen to the Dark Side and his running a Secret Police. Obi Wan Kenobi went to Mustafar with the intention of stopping Anakin and that wasn't Dark Side.

 

I didn't agree with Obi-wan's handling of the situation.