Did Luke exaggerate his defeat in ROTJ, same as Palpatine did in ROTS?

All this time, it's been pretty clear to me that during the climax of ROTJ Luke was getting his butt whooped by the Emperor and he just wasn't able to defend himself from the Force Lightning which he had never encountered before. It's also agreed upon that the Emperor was toying with Luke until the "Now young Skywalker, you will die" series of blasts, when he started to use lethal force.

But now, after seeing ROTS, I'm not so sure. I think Luke was exaggerating his defeat, much in the way Sideous did in ROTS.

Argument one: Sure Luke was smoking, but I think his writhing in pain was exaggerated. We know the Emperor was toying with him up until the end, so he was therefore using sub-lethal force. Luke didn't try to run away, didn't try to strike back, didn't try to recall his light sabre to defend himself. Why not? I think he was faking his convulsions, as they were slow, methodical, and exaggerated -- quite unlike the convulsions Mace experienced when attacked, or the convulsions any human being experinces when it's out of their control. Luke was also able to sustain a few moments of lethal force, therefore the sub-lethal blasts were even less threatening, making his lack of counter attack curious.

Argument two: Luke didn't suffer any physical damage even after lethal attack levels. Luke suffers several moments of lethal lightning but then as soon as his father turns and hoists the Emperor up, the lightning stops. Luke just kind of pops his head up and looks at the show, as if to say "gee, look at that". He doesn't lay on his back unconscious, he doesn't roll side to side in agony, he is not paralyzed, his eyes haven't popped, his hair hasn't burned off. He sits up and enjoys the show. He then gets up with no problem, drags his father to the shuttle, and escapes. He doesn't seem to have sufferred any real injury from the lightning whatsoever.

Therefore, I believe Luke was purposely absorbing the attack to sway his father (in the same way Sideous exaggerated his defeat at the hands of Mace in ROTS), and that adds to the sweetness of the parallel.

 

I don't think he was faking since the Emperor is much more powerful than Luke. He was writhing in agony and screaming, so I think it was genuine. He doesn't get up right away, its after the Emperor is dead and Vader is close to the edge of the pit that he slowly walks over and pulls him away. Vader was even able to carry the Emperor to the shaft while being struck by lightning, so I don't think Luke's reaction after its finished indicates he wasn't harmed. He wanted to try to bring his father to safety at that point, so I think he mustered up all the stregnth he had to bring him to the shuttle. Luke wanted to turn his father back to the good side, but I don't think he planned on experiencing that much pain to accomplish it or even knew for certain how Vader would react in such a situation. Luke didn't even want to be brought to the Emperor in the first place; he hoped to turn Vader back by simply talking to him. That was unsuccessful at first, but I don't think he wanted to go through a near death experience to turn Vader back.

 

I disagree. One, remember Luke had never seen Force Lightning before, so I find it doubtful he would be able to learn how to absorb it that easily and that quickly. Given that the only person we see absorbing it is Yoda, who has been a Jedi for many centuries. Luke's brief training just wouldn't have been up to that, IMO. Similarly, I dont think he had enough training to really be able to react to the lightning and form any counter attack. Remember, most of Luke's offensive skills are centered around the lightsaber which he just tossed aside - and with the lightning, probably didn't have the energy to call it back to his hand.

Granted, this is EU, but Truce at Bakura describes Luke's injuries due to the lightning, so it does have an effect.

I've always taken the "Now, young Skywalker, you will die" as just meaning that he wasn't going to pause again, although I can see how it could be taken to mean elevated levels.

 

Although Luke did want Vader to turn he wouldn't of gone about it like that. The lightning did catch Luke off guard but IMO he wasn't faking the pain he was in. Palpatine's circumstances although similar in ROTS were slightly different, he was sneaky and planned much of what happened.

 

Luke wasn't faking.

 

I don't think Luke was faking at all. However, I've always had a problem with his really quick recovery once Vader grabs the Emperor. It never struck me as a realistic reaction. Another example of this is Leia's half-hearted "No...!" when Alderaan is destroyed. The radio drama version of that scene has her screaming and shrieking, and is led away bawling.

 

i dont think luke was faking...

In my opinion, luke was being electrically shocked, and it was very painful...
he pleaded with Vader because that was lal he had left.

But, the emperor was not giving him the full blown shock treatment at first. (like he probablly was with windu)

he was giving it to him in small doses,and pausing, to make him suffer and or possible beg for mercy...

then finally, he says "and now young jedi, you will die" and thats when he starts giving him the leathal dose

 

I think once you're electrocuted badly enough that you're actually producing smoke, it's a safe bet that you're not faking

 

No, he wasn't faking. The Emperor was torturing Luke at first with the lightning and then after he said, "Now young Skywalker...you will die" is when the Emperor was actually going to kill Luke. Luke (By the way he was twitching/screaming.) was in a great deal of pain. Plus he couldn't call back his saber because the lightning was too painful. Luke Skywalker's Jedi Knight training actually wasn't very long, compared to most other Jedi. He's not someone like Yoda, who could easily absorb force lightning and deflect it back like a baseball. Yoda had decades of training, Luke on the other hand did not. Plus he was caught off guard when the Emperor attacked him.

So, like I said Luke wasn't faking.

Palpatine on the other hand, did exaggerate his defeat after his duel with Mace in ROTS.

 

Luke wasn't faking. Sidious wanted Luke to suffer as much as possible before he died, so he used low level lightining. All the other times Sidious uses fatal and more powerful lightning against his opponents. Mace and Vader got the worst of it.

 

Whether or not Luke was faking, I think janstett brings up a good point about the parallels between these two scenes...

 

I see the parallel between these scenes in ROTJ and ROTS. But I think Luke wasn't faking it.

For one Sidious is a Sith. Lies and deception are powerful tools of the Sith. So while acting hurt is very much something Sidious would do to turn Anakin, it is not the way a Jedi would act to turn a former Jedi back to the good side of the force.

Also I think Sidious is just plan cruel. A slow death to the last Jedi sounds like a very pleasing way for the emperor to vanquish a long time foe(The Jedi order, not Luke himself). So I do think he was ratcheting up the force lighting to see how much Luke could absorb before he gave in.

Notice when Vader betrayed him, a move I'm sure Sidious didn't expect, the lighting became far more violent. Just a few shots was all it took to kill Vader.

A thought provoking idea, but I just can't believe it myself.

mike

 

I also don't think he was faking it, but that's a very interesting theory!


Luke's agony being real just has a much stronger impact on Anakin than a mirroring of all the lies and deceptions Palpatine always told him

 

Yes there are parallels between the two, inverted parallels.

What happens in ROTJ is what should have happened in ROTS.

Speaking of which, anyone else enjoy the juxtaposition of this line?
like my father before me? He's speaking in relation to time.
Yet, Vader is actually behind him in the scene.

 

I also believe that Luke was absolutely NOT faking. I thought it was dumb for Luke to throw away his lightsaber and become defenseless. My thought was, after Luke defeated Vader, why not go after the Emperor?

 

^He was taking a stand against the Emperor. He didn't know about the lightning. So why would he be worried? The Emperor seemed harmless, so it made a good point and it seemed to really tick off the Emperor.
Boy Luke felt dumb when he was being fried.
In my Opinion, that was real pain he was feeling, he was not faking. If he was faking, wouldn't that take some of the power away from the scene???? A LOT of the power away!
1. Palpatine NOT killing Luke takes away the emotional aspect
2. The lack of seriousness in the scene makes Vader's choice less meaningfull
3. The lack of fear and evil in that scene makes the Emperor seem less of a danger to Luke and takes away from his power, once again making Vader's final choice of less consequence.
No, he was not faking.

 

All of your replies were very interesting and thought provoking. I agree (or would like to agree) about lies/deceit not being the Jedi way, and that faking defeat would have lessenned the real danger and emotional impact.

I think, as one poster noted, that I was trying to combine the obvious parallels between this scene and the one in ROTS with Luke's unusually quick recovery. Perhaps that was just bad acting/direction, but I am leaving the door open that Hamill was specifically directed to play it that way. You could also put it in a different light and say that Luke was <still> trying to sacrifice himself, he seemed ready to die when he surrendered to Vader ("Soon I'll be dead, and you with me"). Another way to view it was that even though he was capable of mounting a defense, he chose instead to not fight (as he did so many times in the battle with Vader) and take the punishment, he was willing to die and was letting the emperor kill him. Or perhaps another way to look at it is that Luke is still stronger than even he realizes, kind of like absorbing punches and giving out a pavlolvian "ouch" and then realizing it doesn't hurt that bad after all?

Maybe I'd feel better if Luke didn't recover so quickly.

 

I agree the parallels in the two scenes are amazing...and a true "glue" to the whole saga...As anakin makes the same chocie in both scenes, although with much different results on the scale of good vs evil.
in fact-they are some of my favorite scenes in both movies, and two of the major turning points in anakins life.
and although i dont think luke was faking where palpy was the parallels are still there

palpy getting electric rebound shocked ---fakes his beg for mercy from anakin --anakin takes the step to the darkside

luke getting electric shock-- begs for true mercy --anakin takes the step back to light.

considering ROTS is the fall, and ROTJ is the redemption...these are perfect parallels


I guess, i see how luke recovers to quickly...however this never bothered me...

perhaps Luke was moved/strethened by Vaders turn to the light, and could feel the love and redemption of Anakin...maybe this gave luke the will to get up and realize that if he was gonna live he needed to get off the death star asap...

 

Luke Wasn't Faking, Sidious wasn't faking. You're making conclusions out of false perceptions.

 

i agree faking is not the right word...but its presumable palpy couldve been exagerating?

whether palpatine was exagerating or not:
i dont think luke was exagerating at all
i think the two scenes are still the perfect parallel.

 

Again: speculation that can ruin the emotional power of the most important moments of the saga...

 

I hate to say it, but I don't think Luke is that smart. Palpatine would be able to run a dozen laps around him before Luke would even notice.

Or perhaps, to phrase it in a less derogatory way, I should say this: one of Luke's most endearing traits is he is a disarmingly honest and simple person. I doubt he's ever manipulated someone or attempted to play games with a person in his life.

 

i believe what you think is luke faking like he is hurt is just mark hamill's acting. but if you want to say there a great discrepancy between the power of the lightning in the OT as opposed to the PT, then i would certainly agree with you. this may be why you believe luke is pretending to be hurt worse than he is.

 

No he was not faking. That scene is all about honesty and doing the morally right thing. If he had faked the whole scene would lose it's impact. Luke was rightous and was showing both Vader and the Emperor of what it really meant to be a Jedi. No lies or deciet in there.

 

do not hink he was.. otherwise he could ave used force to bring anakin to the tranporter.