Did Luke use Force Choke in ROTJ?

Ok so I was off work yesterday and I popped in ROTJ. When luke enters jabba's palace, The Gamorrean guards bar entry to luke.. he lifts his hand and they float away.. but from the way they walk back its not a force push. Then I noticed that the one Gamorrean guard puts his hand to his chest (like the roman salute) and falls back.. closes his eyes and bows his head.. I know this isnt a force choke perse.. but it's pretty close.. I just wonder what yalls take on it.. Ive seen it many many times and I am always confused as to what exactly happens there..

 

He merely rendered them unconscious. Both guards survived that incident.

 

well i know that.. weve never actually seen someone die from a force choke in the movies.. but did luke do this physically or mentally?

 

O RLY?
[image=http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090301013251/starwars/images/c/c8/OzzelIsSmarterThanYou-ESBHD.jpg] [image=http://lukoagency.free.fr/images/Michael%20Culver/needa1.jpg]

He used the Force, so it was obviously mentally.

 

O RLY?
[image=http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6289/robotchickena.jpg]

 

well you know.. i forgot about those guys.. but then again.. who were they really?? NO BODY IMPORTANT! thanks for the put down i will go back to my corner now..



HAHAHAHA

and thanks.. I just am kind of confused what he exactly does.. does he like ask their mind to make them unconscience.. ?

 

In all seriousness, what he probably does with the force is the same thing people in real life do with the sleeper hold. Puts pressure on the carotid, cuts off the blood to the brain for a period until the person falls unconscious.

 

Wait a minute. In all seriousness? We didn't agree to that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttr3IFD-auE

 

Does he use the force choke? Yes, I think he does. And it really is a bit of a slip in continuity or at least an improper move on Luke's part. A Jedi shouldn't really be doing such a thing. But from the movie's point of view, I guess its all about showing us that Luke's power has grown and that he can now match Vader's abilities, which is an important thing to establish at the start of that movie (also in principle why he's dressed in black - the message is Luke is not to be messed with).

No Luke doesn't kill the guard. But Vader doesn't kill Motti in ANH or Padme in ROTS (not through the choke at least). That doesn't excuse its use, for me. Its still dabbling with the dark side as much as say force lightning would be.

 

I just had to wonder.. i really did.. i just believe that in all honesty he must.. and for me the message at the beginning is that the new jedi order (through luke) isnt his daddies order.. I believe that the order will never be the same again.. and maybe thats how vader brings balance to the force.. he sets the sith and the jedi on one level and makes it all about not one being evil and the other not being evil but just both as a person.. a persons choice makes them evil or not and what they do evil or not.. ??

 

As far as the use of Force Choke on the good vs. evil morality scale, check out this excerpt from the third draft of ANH, in which Ben Kenobi infiltrates an Imperial base on the gaseous planet Alderaan.

Granted, this never made it into ANH as filmed. But it's interesting to see Obi-Wan using what appears to be Force Choke against "bad guys," much as Luke does in ROTJ.

 

It's not just that his powers have grown, it's to emphasise that he's treading dangerously close to the Dark Side with these powers. The black outfit's doing the same thing:

MARK HAMILL: You haven't seen my new costume yet. It's all black. I told George it's very Vaderish, but he said, "It's supposed to be".

- Bantha Tracks #18, November 1982

Perhaps a Jedi shouldn't be using a Force Choke, regardless of whether the recipients are rendered unconscious or dead, but Luke's not a Jedi yet. At the start of ROTJ, one has to assume that he could just as easily become a Sith (or Dark Jedi, as most would have called it in 1983).

 

I'm not sure but I always thought he did, the Gamorrean the camera focuses on puts his hand to his throat as if being strangled by force choke and makes gargling noises that you hear when choking somebody

 

This is from the ROTJ novel:
Luke raised his hand and pointed at the guards. Before either could draw a weapon, they were both clutching their own throats, choking, gasping. They fell to their knees. Luke lowered his hand and walked on. The guards, suddenly able to breathe again, slumped to the sanddrifted steps. They didn't follow.

Perhaps not; my opinion is that it is not the tool (and a force choke, in my opinion, could technically be considered a tool), but the motive that determines whether something is dark side. Just because Obi-Wan picks up a red lightsaber (a Sith's tool) and duels with it does not make him a dark side user. And just because Anakin is holding a blue lightsaber (a Jedi's tool) when he slaughters younglings in the temple, it does not excuse his actions. Vader using the force choke is dark side because his motive is anger. Luke used the force choke in order to pass. There was no other way to enter Jabba's palace - he certainly couldn't simply ask the guards to please step aside. And he didn't kill them; he merely knocked them out for a time. Would it have been different if he had smacked them over the head with his lightsaber handle? No. The end result would be the same: the guards are knocked out and Luke continues on his way.

 

The action is an aggressive one. There's no two ways about it. Motive does not excuse it - as many often point out "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". If Luke were to use force lightning on the guards, you wouldn't think that was okay simply because his motive was only to get past them. Its not the jedi way.

He could have done exactly what he did with Bib Fortuna, in theory.

 

Right. In theory, one could argue that Luke was 'disabling' the guards, but by film #3 in the saga, the particular technique he utilised was well & truly the trademark of one Darth Vader.

In ANH, Obi-Wan used very subtle, somewhat harmless Force methods to distract & confuse opponents - the stormtroopers in Mos Eisley & on the Death Star - the only times he used anything more aggressive was against a pair of blaster-wielding drunks in the cantina & in his final duel against Vader (if either could even be counted as using the Force specifically).
In ESB, all Yoda ever did was lift Luke's X-Wing out of the bog as a demonstration.

Vader, however, used the Force as a vicious weapon from the start, most notably by choking those he was irritated with, two out of three times to death. IIRC, there may have been a scene at some stage where he gave Lando a little squeeze as a a threat. Lando's well aware of what Vader does - he does touch his throat at one point in the finished film of ESB.

Our introduction to Luke Skywalker in ROTJ is that of a black-hooded man striding confidently into a very formidable citadel, disabling the first immediate challenge to his entry with a power we've only ever previously seen wielded by the most savage villain in the SW galaxy. The very same villain whose last contact with our hero was an offer via the Force to join him & conquer the entire galaxy with their combined power - just after he'd delivered a shattering revelation regarding their intertwined pasts.

Luke's use of the most sinister Force technique witnessed until then is clearly meant to emphasise the fact that he's walking a tightrope on his path to becoming a Jedi. It's not just another Jedi power, it's one associated with the Dark Side.

 

Of course the action is aggressive. Obi-Wan was aggressive when dueling Vader on Mustafar, but that does not mean he was using the dark side.

If Luke had been using Force lightening his motive wouldn't have been to simply get past the guards. Force lightening is used when the user wants to cause the victim a lot of pain.¹ The reason you never see a Jedi use this technique in the movies is because Jedi do not wish their opponent any more pain than necessary.

He didn't do this for the same reason Yoda didn't do it to the Imperial Guards in ROTS - he was in immediate danger. Every time that I can think of where someone is using a mind trick, the person they are doing it to is not too much of a threat; for instance:
1. Obi-Wan used it on the stormtrooper in ANH, but the trooper wasn't waving a blaster in his face - no immediate danger.
2. Obi-Wan used it on Elan Sleazebaggano in AOTC, but, again, there was no immediate threat.
3. Qui-Gon used it on Boss Nass, and tried to use it on Watto; no immediate threat.

There are times when a mind trick simply is not enough - such as:
1. As I mentioned before - Yoda in Palpatine's office in ROTS. The Guards turned to face Yoda, pointing their weapons at him. He did not try a mind trick here - he immediately, and may I say, aggressively, picked them up and hurled them against the wall.
2. Obi-Wan in the bar in AOTC. Wessel walks up behind him with a blaster. He turns and cuts her arm off. Not a mind trick, asking her to please put the weapon down and come along peacefully - he was in immediate danger.
3. Obi-Wan, again, in the cantina. Ponda Baba and Cornelius Evazan bully Luke, and Obi-Wan, after attempting to get them to leave Luke alone, is forced to pull out his lightsaber and cut Ponda Baba's arm off.

These actions are not dark side; they are practical.

¹

 

The best example of Obi-Wan using aggression is vs Maul in TPM. But it very nearly seals his death. Remember - "anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the force are they". The saga?s position on this is clear

And choking them doesn?t?!

Alright then, why couldn?t Luke simply render the guards unconscious like Yoda did the guards? You kinda defeat your own argument by bringing this non-aggressive example up. Numbing his opponents into a temporary state of unconsciousness would have been the perfect solution.

 

And also the fact that use of the dark side is required to conjure it in the first place. Lucas describes it as a "dark side power" regardless of its application.

Not quite; fear is later described in TPM as a path to the dark side, rather than the dark side itself, while TESB says the same thing about giving in to hate. This may be seen as a consequence of Yoda talking in what Lucas calls "bumper sticker speak".

 

Yes, though it doesn't detract from the the clear message that portrays using aggression as something no good Jedi should be doing. The poster prior to me was implying that showing aggression for a Jedi was no big deal because we saw Obi-Wan use it against Anakin (something I also dispute, given it was Anakin's aggression and Obi-Wan's strategy and patience that proved the former's undoing). Whether Yoda's saying aggression is the dark side or merely a path to the dark side is fairly irrelevant here.

 

However, we also see "good Jedi" characters routinely taking aggressive action in the films, in various situations which often do not involve any IU or OOU indication that the character is in the process of turning. As Yoda said in the EU, "Warriors always have we been". Some of these scenes have already been cited, like Obi-Wan in ANH. When aggressive actions become necessary to ultimately defend others, the line between "attack" and "defense" becomes blurred. From the POV of the Annotated Screenplays, Luke is using the dark side when he fights but is also using the light side at the same time, creating a sort of "balance" ( my word, not the author's ) which apparently prevents the process from becoming a move toward the dark side.

 

Yes, he used a Force choke... which a Jedi shouldn't do, but as others have said, he wasn't a Jedi yet. We are shown this in the beginning of ROTJ to see how much his powers have grown, but also with them his arrogance about his powers. He will learn to temper that by the time he becomes a Jedi. Also, his dark clothes are a reference to the danger he is in at that point of getting too close to the dark side, and his (albeit non-deadly) Force choke is a reference to a particular favorite move of his father's.

 

When I used the word aggressive, I meant aggressively defensive, not aggressively offensive.

What I was saying was, that, most often, Force lightening is used (along with the lethal intent) as a means of torture. Luke did not have this in mind. And please understand, I did not mean to anger you, I was merely trying to discuss.

Yoda did not simply render them unconscious. He forcefully slammed their heads against the wall - in aggressive defense. As to why Luke didn't do that, you must remember that Luke was still a padawan. If there even is a technique that allows one to knock someone out like that, he would likely not have known how to do it.

As "keepers of the peace", Jedi must expect to come upon a situation where they are forced to act in a way that could be considered aggressive; this is why they carry lightsabers and are trained to use them effectively.

 

I wouldn't say we see it routinely. But where we do see it, it is usually shown to the character's detriment - Obi-Wan in TPM vs Maul. Windu's attempted slaying of Palpatine. Anakin in AOTC charging down Dooku.... and of course vs the tuskens. I don't remember Yoda using it outright. I wouldn't define anything he does as aggressive.... defensive, yes. To do the other, would simply contradict his own teachings. Obi Wan in ANH is strictly speaking defending himself by the only sure means necessary he could vs a blaster attack - what would otherwise be his own death. Though I would grant you at the time of the making of the movie, the jedi philosophy had yet to be completely ironed out.

We do see Qui-Gon render Jar Jar somewhat unconcious in TPM though... so the technique clearly exists. And to argue Luke wouldn't know how to do it would be akin to arguing he wouldn't know how to force choke someone. Luke knows his stuff by then, make no mistake - "no more training do you require. already know you, that what you need". That he chooses to choke the guards ahead of the many other things he could have done is, to my mind, the wrong thing for him to do... just as its wrong to strike down on Vader the way he does towards the end of the film. The point is, Luke is not perfect at this point. He is still prone to impulsive, incorrect moves. And I believe this is one such example. He is flirting with his dark side. He is still impatient. I think such an action proves this.

While I confess I would need to watch the scene again, my take on it was always that Yoda had simply hypnotised them to a state of unconciousness. Even if what you say is true though, it is still a defensive act. The guards are about to attack Yoda.

I'm sorry, I still see no difference. Had Luke zapped the guards with dose each of force lightning, it would be no better or worse.

I think thats an oxymoron. The definition given by dictionary.com is as follows:

1. the action of a state in violating by force the rights of another state, particularly its territorial rights; an unprovoked offensive, attack, invasion, or the like
2. any offensive action, attack, or procedure; an inroad or encroachment: an aggression upon one's rights.
3. the practice of making assaults or attacks; offensive action in general.
4. Psychiatry . overt or suppressed hostility, either innate or resulting from continued frustration and directed outward or against oneself.

Aggression has nothing to do with defence, as far as I can determine. While you seem to argue Luke is defending himself, the guards (from what I recall) aren't threatening him. They are merely blocking his entry.

The lightsaber is considered a tool of protection as much as anything... or a deterrent against attacks. The Jedi mindset concerns philosophies such as "a jedi uses the force for knowledge and defence. Never for attack". The lightsaber should be an extension of this philosophy.

 

I omitted the extremely limited number of examples in which there is a known allegation of skirting the dark side.

You seem to contradict yourself. So-called "aggressive defense" has already been referenced here. The scene with Luke and the Gamorreans, like Mace, is an isolated incident not of the same mold. You said it yourself: Obi Wan in ANH is strictly speaking defending himself by the only sure means necessary he could vs a blaster attack - what would otherwise be his own death.

That's the problem with "bumper sticker speak" which relies upon a dichotomy of attack and defense... it doesn't apply particularly well to aggressive defense. Sometimes the defense of the Republic requires attack.

Or in other words, they're knights.