Did Mace Windu unofficially take over the Council leadership

I see many posts where Yoda is referred to as the Leader of the Jedi Order. While I agree that Yoda is the Spiritual sage, I think by the Episode III, the Jedi are in disarray and Mace seems to directing the Order.

Episode 1: Council decisions were more collective, with everyone deferring to Yoda.
Episoda 2: Mace becomes more prominent and appears to make more decisions (I"ll take what Jedi I have to.....)
Episode 3: Mace is the political face of the Jedi and appears to make the decision to move against Palpatine. It appears that Yoda is deferring to him a bit.

Obviously, the shift in the Prequels of the role of the Jedi in the Republic, is a reason for the Order's downfall. Mace's growing importance in the series seems to one of the ways GL focus on this aspect of the story. Thoughts?

 

Hmmm, I might have to take another look, but to me it seemed it was always the council in charge but deferring to both Mace and Yoda. Mace does speak for the council in the first movie.

 

Though Yoda was the head of the Jedi Council, he saw Mace as his equal. Master Windu was a Senior member of the JC and although he didn't exactly direct the order as Yoda did, I feel that Mace took over more and more during the war because he was a weapon master and more of a warrior than Yoda, so during the CW he took on more responsibilities.

But I believe in the end, they shared their duties equally. Yoda was more of the spiritual leader, as you mentioned and Mace more of the aggressive leader. Windu always had a strong leadership on the council as a respected Jedi master, but he did not take it over from Yoda's grasp. At the end of the day, Windu still goes to Yoda for guidance. Taught Jedi for 800 years, he did. Wise, is he.

 

Mace Windu unofficially take over the Council leadership

Certainly in his mind he did.

 

Of the Council Members, Mace had the strongest personal connection to the Republic. While all served the Republic, the Senate, democracy, Mace Windu had developed an unnatural attachment that severely clouded his vision.

That limitation, combined with his overconfidence and his inability to recognize Anakin for what he was, spelled his doom.

Windu was an incredibly powerful leader in a time when the Order desperately needed an incredibly visionary one.

 

I always took Mace to be the de facto leader when Yoda was not about.

 

Probably, but there is a nice bit of dialogue in the EU (possibly in Dark Rendezvous) where he tells Palpatine that he is not Yoda?s equal in war or teaching .

 

That's the way I see it as well.


On the Council, Windu was often regarded as second only to the Grand Master Yoda, though Windu was eight centuries Yoda's junior.

From: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mace_Windu

 

I interpreted it as while all the Council members had an equal say, Mace usually voiced their opinion publicly (in the sense that he talked to fellow Jedi, etc.). Yoda tended to stay silent unless he had something important to say and the Council usually deferred to Yoda's wisdom.

 

I get the impression that Yoda is the head of the Jedi Council while Mace is the director of military operations. Yoda doesn't defer to Mace any more than the President of the United States defers to the Secretary of Defense. They work together, and make decisions together, but since the leader can't be everyplace at once he needs subordinates to help shoulder the workload.

 

In regards to removing Palpatine from office, Yoda seemed to be the dissenting vote as such talk took the Jedi into a dark place. Regardless of Yoda's statement, the scene shortly after the holographic council session, Mace had a posse on the way to Palpatine's office. It just appeared to me strictly from the Film, that Mace made the final decision to take down Palpatine.

I interpreted this shift in the Council decision making as a mechanism for GL to deflect some of the blame on the fall of the Jedi away from Yoda to make his character maintain some credibility as the wise sage in the future chapters. Mace presented the strong, aggressive old school Jedi (which failed with the changing times) as a way to contrast with the more cautious, thoughful Yoda. While I have no doubt Yoda was a Grand Master, I just viewed Mace and stepping up in ROTS and taking a dominant decision making position that was directing the Jedi agenda prior their collaspe.

 

I always saw it as Mace being more of the military leader of the Jedi and Yoda handling more of the diplomatic side of things.

 

Could it be said that, while Yoda was away on his mission to Kashyyyk, control was turned over to Windu in his absence? And from there...you know...

 

SaberSlash, I do agree with you somewhat here, but I also tend to look at Yoda's move to go straight into Palpatine's office himself to confront and take him out as just as bold as Mace going to arrest him. ("Destroy the Sith we must") As wise as Yoda is, that move would not necessarily been seen as that wise considering now that the public believed the Jedi were tryin to assassinate Palpatine. If Yoda had been able to kill Palpatine, public opinion about the Jedi would have remained the same until it was proven Palpatine was truly evil.

So from a certain point of view, Yoda's actions in this manner do not necessarily come across as wise, but borderline desperation.

Darth Sin!

 

I agree with your point Darth Sin.
Yoda made a brash move--he had to take a decisive move at that point as he was the only one left to clean up the mess the Jedi enabled Palpatine to create. Too often, Yoda appeared passive and too thoughtful in ROTS which is why I see Mace filling the leadership void.

 

I don't think the Jedi had a strict hierarchy at all, frankly. We see plenty of cases of Jedi doing more or less as they thought best in all three films, and ignoring Mace and Yoda's orders.

Episode I-Qui-Gon, after Mace tells him that Anakin will not be taken as a Padawan learner, tells Mace that he'll train Anakin personally. The only thing that seems to stop this from actually happening is that Qui-Gon already has a pupil, and later, Yoda's direct order to not train him. We also hear that Qui-Gon's ignored the Code/the Council plenty of times before, and the only consequence seems to be that he's not on the Council.

The entire Council decides against Yoda's opinion on training Anakin after Anakin blows up the TF battleship at Naboo. This wouldn't be possible if Yoda's word was the end-all/be-all in everything-he'd have the final say, and it's clear he doesn't here.

Episode II-The only Jedi in the entire trilogy we see acknowledging there being definite consequences to disobeying orders is Anakin, a Padawan Learner.

Episode III-Mace goes against Yoda's advice on removing Palpatine; although it doesn't seem to me that Yoda said "no, don't do it." More like he said "Think this through carefully." Later on, Obi-Wan doesn't simply accept Yoda's order to kill Vader-he attempts to get around it.

If you ask me, the Council-and everybody above the rank of Padawan-could disagree with and even disobey the Council's or Yoda/Mace's orders if they had a good reason for doing so.