Did Nute Gunray know Dooku is a Sith? If so, why do business with him?

as dooku said "they were betrayed 10 years ago by the dark lord...."

and its quite obvious dooku is no longer a jedi. he is ammassing an army against the republic, speaks of jedi "being overwhelmed" and carries a clearly visable lightsaber. he also wears a sith clasp around his neck that connects his cape, similar in design to the one that sidious wore on his cloak in TPM.

so my question is, did the neimodians know dooku is a sith? or is that story about how they came to him for help etc a load of crap to confuse obi-wan?

 

No, I doubt if they knew Count Dooku is a Sith. If so they would have put on the breaks. Notice when Gunray felt his dealings were getting out of hand when Sidious introduced Darth Maul to them. Now there are two of them.

They don't know him to be Lord Tyranus. Just Count Dooku. So Gunray or the others in league with Dooku doesn't know that he's a Sith Lord.

 

Nute didn't know. As far as we know, he's the only one who doesn't know the truth. Poogle the Lesser does know about that and Sidious.

 

yes i had feeling poggle may know more then the others. because dooku openly speaks about his 'master' in front of poggle, after the neimodians have left for their starship

 

Good topic Mr_Mwindu! Very interesting question.

I would think that Dooku is being truly honest about what he says to Obi during the prison cell scene. Nute was aware of Sidious and Maul being Siths. I think that he did in fact approach Jedi Master Dooku for help shortly after the events of TPM. Nute was unaware that Dooku then subsequently turned to the darkside. It is plausible that an ex-Jedi would still carry his lightsaber for defence? So that in itself would not be enough to make Nute suspect Dooku. The Sith garb is not obvious to Nute (and the Jedi for that matter).

I personally believe it may have been Nute leading Dooku to Sidious that caused the new sith pairing. Maybe Dooku tracked down Sidious via Nute and confronted him (Nute had to have known how to contact Sidious as we see him do so in TPM!). At that time Sidious was able to sway Dooku and turn the faltering Jedi to his cause...

What do you guys think?

Oh and by the way, I do think that Poggle is aware that Dooku has a "master", as someone already said Dooku openly mentions him...
BUT Poggle is NOT aware that Dooku's master is in fact Palpatine!!! (I am confident that Dooku knows about the Palp/Sid connection as he also mentions something along these lines to Obi-Wan in the cell)

 

Poggle certainly knows more than the Neimoidians(?sp), BUT does he actually know that Dooku and his master are in fact Sith Lords? That is the question.

 

sorry. you guys already mentioned the clasp would not be recognized as a Sith clasp by anybody, so never mind...

 

It is rather obvious that Nute is unaware that Dooku is a Sith, and if he did know he certainly would not have come back into league with the Sith after Sidious abandoned him when the Trade Federation got in trouble.

But my question has been, "Why would he get involved with a former Jedi Knight"??!!

In TPM, Nute knew very little about the Jedi, and had never encountered one before. And his first encounter with them, he is opposing them. So even though he is dropped by Sidious, I still do not see how he could come into league with Dooku, though he had not long left the Jedi order. Not really knowing Dooku, Nute was at risk that he might turn him in to the Senate for seeking to rebel and secede from the Republic, even though Dooku was heading up this Separatist movement. In other words, I would think that Nute may have been a little apprehensive to join forces with anyone else after what happened at Naboo.

I have always felt that in part to what Dooku said of Nute asking for his help, I think that he may have wanted his help for protection against Sidious. Nute may have felt that Sidious betrayed and dropped his services because he considered that he failed at Naboo. So considering the nature of the Sith, Nute figured that Sidious would know doubt want him dead, because he possibly could figure who Sidious was in the Senate.

So to get protection, Dooku gets Nute to enter into a deal whereas he must pledge his alliance and droid armies to the Separatists. But to ensure Nute is not betrayed, and what he considers loyalty on Dooku's part, he will only fully comply with the death of Amidala, who foiled his plans and got him into his problems with Sidious.


Darth Sin!

 

Something like that Sin. However, Jedi appear to be more honorable than the Sith were. That's for sure. Dooku probably gave him a big snow job about wanting to help him and others like him take on the Republic. Nute's a smart businessman, but not the brightest egg in the bunch.

As to Poggle's knowing, Sidious helped him to obtain the "Archduke" status that he has amongest the many hives of the Geonosians. In return for his aid, Sidious enlisted Poogle to help with the creation of the Droid Army and the Death Star.

 

two excellent post there, by AttackCloneYorath and DarthSin respectively.

yes and another issue has been raised, if nute didnt know dooku was a sith, then why would he turn to a jedi master????

it doesnt make sense!

 

Good question - Why would Nute side with the Jedi (or at least one Jedi/Ex-Jedi) after his alliance with the Sith?

Well, as Darth Sin suggests, Nute may have felt threatened by Sidious after the failure of the Naboo invasion. Even when they were in partnership Nute was afraid of him! So it is understandable that Nute would turn to a Jedi for help against the Sith. Who else would he turn to? He couldn't exactly go to the Republic for help for obvious reasons.

Don't forget that although Nute and the Trade Federation had been fighting against the Jedi in TPM it was not their intention to do so!!! The Federation was just moving against Naboo and ultimately the Republic itself. It was the Supreme Chancellor's decision to send the two Jedi as ambassadors that involved the Jedi directly. Even then the Jedi Orders involvement in the crisis was a secret as the opening scroll states "Two Jedi knights... were SECRETLY dispatched...". Besides, Nute is a cowardly character, able to change alignment as his needs change. It is not impossible to think that he would go to the Jedi for help when the chips are down and he has a Sith on his back (so he thinks). It was just unfortunate that he chose Dooku as his Jedi contact... unfortunate indeed since Dooku was a closet-Sith-wannabe...

Good work all round guys!
I thank each and every one of you for your good posts! These peaceful and thoughtful discussions are why I come here.

 

I just thought of an excellent idea for the possible TPM ARCHIVAL EDITION....

Picture this if you will:

Not far from the end of TPM, Darth Maul has just been killed by Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon has just died in his padawan's arms. The shot wipes to the Republic Cruiser landing in the streets of Theed in front of the palace. Panaka and Amidala speak to the Neimoidians before they are marched onto the ship...

Now, as the Neimoidians walk towards the ramp of the Republic Cruiser we insert a brief new scene! This new scene slots in just before Palpatine approaches Obi-Wan and Anakin to deliver the "We are indebted to you Obi-Wan Kenobi, and you, young Skywalker, we shall watch your career with great interest!" line. This new scene is of the two Neimoidians walking up the ramp with the Naboo security guards. Thay are walked a short way into the ship where they encounter a robbed Jedi with his hood pulled up which obscures his face. The Jedi speaks to them, "Greetings Viceroy, I have been assigned to escort you back to Coruscant where you will await your senate hearing." The Jedi then pulls back his hood to reveal none other than Dooku himself! He speaks to the guards, "I will take them from here." Dooku leads them into the ship and the guards return down the ramp into the street...

The film then goes back to the normal Palpatine bit I mentioned just now. This I think would give a nice little nod to the subsequent Dooku-Nute connection. What do you guys think of this idea? The scene only needs to be around 5 or 6 seconds long and wouldn't disrupt the existing street scene too much. If anything it would help it in my opinion as I was always keen to know what provisions were made with the captive Neimoidians (just a little thing I have always wondered, since my first ever viewing in fact!). They just seemed to walk off towards the ship and that was that... an uncerimonious exit, the poor buggers!

It would kind of tie things together nicely since Palpatine and Dooku would have to have shared time together in the ship on their voyage to Naboo. It was during this time that Palps began his manipulation of Dooku! Started turning him if you like... Also we could assume that Nute broke down and confessed his Sith dealings to Dooku on board the ship as they travel back to coruscant, or at least got to know Dooku a little which is why he later turned to him for help!

Phew, sorry guys... thought overload. Please tell me if you think this a load of rubbish, but to me it sounds pretty good.
?

 

Damn! Did i say "robbed Jedi"!? I meant robed (I think), as in wearing his Jedi robes! I didn't mean to imply that the Jedi had just been mugged before he sees the Neimoidians!

Oh dear, sorry... too. late. to. edit.
Forgive me!!!


Remember, I have 5 special commando units awaiting your orders!

 

Hang about a sec.....

"I do think that Poggle is aware that Dooku has a "master", as someone already said Dooku openly mentions him."

I disagree. At that stage of the game it was irrelevant whether Poggle knew or not, the war had began minutes earlier when the clones arrived on Geonosis. Whether Poggle knew of Dooku's Sith heritage or not, it was too late to stop them. I think the only one who knew about Dooku's identity was Jango, the one man Dooku knew he could trust (as the clone template and paid handyman).

Nute definately did not know. Could it be possible that Dooku, knowing Nute was in trouble with the courts, have offered to help him secceed from the Republic around the same time he turned to the Dark Side? Obviously Sidious couldn't deal with him anymore since the betrayal and Dooku, in the guise of a partner (a rich, powerful, well-respected partner no less) have approached him, gotten him out of his legal entaglements and used The Trade Federation to bring the guilds and other worlds into the Seperatist movement? Sio Bibble mentions something about Nute Gunray miraculously escaping punishment after so long......I find it hard to believe he's clever enough to do it alone.

?

 

DarthAttorney I must disagree with your disagreeing...
?

The war had indeed just begun, but Poggle handed over the plans for the DeathStar to Dooku in a manner that suggests that he was aware that Dooku was leaving. Almost as if he wanted the plans taken away to secure their safety after the Jedi/clones win the battle and secure the planet.

Dooku in turn calmly says: "I will take the designs with me to Coruscant, they will be much safer there, with my master". This was said in a kind of matter-of-fact way and Poggle showed no signs of shock at Dooku's statement. If Dooku had just thrown this info out to Poggle for the first time wouldn't Poggle have acted VERY differently? Possible even snatching back the holo-plans from Dooku's hand and demanding some kind of explanation on who this "master" person is and why "he" would want the plans?

Well actually the scene cuts immediately after the close-up of the hand held holo-schematics, so who can truly say how Poggle reacted... (damn, I was just recalling the scene in my mind and realised my error). BUT, the tone of the conversation was definitely suggestive of Poggle knowing more than the Neimoidians. Notice that the plans were discussed and handed over AFTER the Neimoidians had left the war room (as Mr_Mwindu rightly said in an earlier post). In fact only Poggle and Dooku spoke together on the matter.

I would say it is fair to assume Poggle knew more than any of the separatist factions. He knew Dooku had a partner or a "master" of some kind, BUT the big question is:

Did Poggle know Dooku and his "master" were Sith Lords? That question deserves a thread of it's own I think... Mr_Mwindu, care to do the honours?

I think that he DOES know they are Sith Lords since Dooku tells him his master is on coruscant! Wouldn't Poggle think something a little fishy if the separatist leader and his master were living on the capital world of the Republic itself, their enemy's home!?
I think that only by knowing they are Sith would Poggle not worry about the 'Coruscant connection'. Poggle on the other hand does NOT know that Dooku's master is also PALPATINE!!!!!!!!! Otherwise, if he did know, then why would he allow himself to be used as a pawn in a "phoney war" which would bring great destruction to his homeworld and people and ultimately see the downfall of his business - droid armies.

I do agree that Jango Fett also knew of the Dooku's Sith connections. We cannot be sure though if Jango also knows about Dooku's master, like Poggle does. Only Dooku knows that Palpatine and Sidious are one and the same!

Phew! Sorry about the waffle. In summary then:

1. Dooku knows everything (fair enough)
2. Jango and Poggle are both privvy to the Dooku = Sith Lord knowledge.
3. Poggle (at least) knows of Dooku's "master"
4. Separatist factions don't know anything about anything! They are idiots!

 

I agree with the theory that Poggle and Jango knew that Dooku is a Sith, but more than likely they are unaware that Dooku's "master" is Palpatine.

In this theory, Poggle and Jango graduated to the level of knowledge that Nute and Rune had in TPM. In TPM, Darth Maul knew his master Sidious=Palpatine, and the Neimodians only knew Sidious, but not that he is Palpatine.

The fact that Jango appeared in the balcony with Dooku solidified that he knew Dooku=Tyranus, and most likely the Sith connection. Jango stated that he was contacted/recruited by a man named Tyranus. So when he said this, he knew Tyranus=Dooku.

And he likely knew that Dooku was the one who said that he was Sifo-Dyas at Kamino when ordering the clones. Whoever portrayed as Sifo-Dyas(Dooku or Palpy/Sidious), Jango had already been recruited by Tyranus=Dooku to begin the procedure.

In getting back to Poggle. Despite the fact that he knew Dooku had a master, and likely knew he was a Sith. What it appears he did not know, as has been said and that is that the Sith have created a phony war and he and others are but pawns.

I just love the way the Sith give their partners just enough info to reel them in, but leave out enough to have them be deceived and hang themselves.


Darth Sin!

 

AttackCloneYorath, your ideas and theories on this thread have been outstanding!!! keep up the good work

and darth attorney, i liked the issues you raised in your post. it is now much clearer that nute did not know dooku was a sith.

but i do believe however, that jango and poggle do know.

ps. AttackCloneYorath's idea about that extra TPM scene was brilliant. you were right, it only needs a couple of seconds, but it sure as hell would work!

 

Actually, there was filmed dialogue during the Obi-Wan/Dooku interrogation scene that got trimmed from the final cut of the movie, and would have explained away this very issue, had Lucas left it in:

COUNT DOOKU
The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend. Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious.

OBI-WAN
I don't believe you.

COUNT DOOKU
The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed ten years ago by the Dark Lord and came to me for help. He told me everything. The Jedi Council would not believe him. I tried many times to warn them but they wouldn't listen to me. Once they sensed the Dark Lord's presence, it would be too late. You must join me, Obi-Wan, and together we will destroy the Sith.

OBI-WAN
I will never join you, Dooku.

So, as you can see, Nute Gunray went to the Jedi Council first, and tried to tell them what was going on (and probably to cut a deal with them), but was ignored. He then went on to find the one Jedi Master who was so incredibly fed up with the entire system that he'd be willing to act upon it.

And so, Count Dooku drops out of sight completely, and then resurfaces many years later at the head of a great army dedicated to the Republic's overthrow. You can probably do the rest of the math from here...

 

great work Leto II!!

that puts a whole new spin on things

 

Not a prob. It does put things in a different light, doesn't it?

 

Excellent stuff indeed Leto II!

But the additional dialogue MUST have been dropped for a particular reason? It is so short a piece to edit out that it makes you think about WHY it was cut out. Maybe Lucas felt that it would weaken the Jedi Council far too much given that they had already admitted their failing powers earlier in the film as well as being constantly "clouded". If they also failed on listening to Nute they would look totally incompetant (perhaps). So can we think of this as non-canonical material?

Never-the-less, it is something we should think about and 'bring to the table' as it were. Thank you Letto II. Good work everybody and thanks for the kind words Mr_Mwindu!

I shall watch this new info with great interest, and remember, that I have 5 special commando units awaiting your orders!

 

I would also like to bring special note to Darth Sin's excellent point about the Neimoidians being relegated in position while Jango and Poggle take their place.

Here is what he says:
"Poggle and Jango graduated to the level of knowledge that Nute and Rune had in TPM. In TPM, Darth Maul knew his master Sidious=Palpatine, and the Neimodians only knew Sidious, but not that he is Palpatine."

I had not thought of it in such terms before, but he raises a valid point indeed. The Sith only reveal themselves to their closest allies at any given time! No more, no less (sorry couldn't help but slip that one in there).

Think about it though, in AOTC their closest allies are in a way also enemies to each other (in a way!!). Jango has being working for the benefit of the Republic by providing them with an army of clones. Even though Jango is really working for the Sith, this is effectively what he has done - Help the republic. He is then also closest to Poggle in terms of Sith heirarchy, but Poggle's race and their machines of war are pitted aginst the clones of Jango. The Sith are playing a dangerous game indeed... It is fair to say Jango knows more than Poggle on this issue!!!!!

So to expand and complete the list of facts on the siuation (from an earlier post):

1. Only SIDIOUS, DOOKU and JANGO are aware of:
a) Sidious = Palpatine.
b) The "greater Sith plan" i.e. playing both sides for their gain and that...
c)...the conflict is in fact a "phoney war".

2. Poggle only knows about the Sith Lords. He does NOT know of the "greater Sith plan" and the "phoney war". He just thinks that the Sith want to topple the Republic, end of story.

3. The Separatist factions, including the Trade Federation, are mere pawns. They are unwittingly working for the Sith and they are simply a means to an end (an excuse for Pals/Sidious to create his military forces).



Well, I know we all know most of this already but I think it helps to keep a clear picture of the facts as we bat around different ideas. Do you all agree on the points listed above? Please feel free to take the list and make your own changes as you see fit. I don't want to steal the thunder from your thread Mr_Mwindu, it's just that I am finding it very interesting. I cant really help myself, sorry!

 

Hmmmmmmm on second thought the list above (in my last post) may not be correct!


Maybe only SIDIOUS and DOOKU know that PALPS=SIDIOUS. We have no proof of JANGO being in on that. We only know that he knows about the "greater Sith plan" and the "phoney war".

The new question really is does Palpatine know that PALPS=SIDIOUS!!!


(only kidding)

 

AttackCloneYorath, dont worry mate, you aint stealing any of my 'thunder'! those last few posts make a lot of sense, and i like the little touch of humour regarding palps/sidious!

and yes, darth sin did make that excellent point earlier, so im sorry i didn't congratulate him, but now i am!

 

Hello again Mr_Mwindu!

I thought I had killed this thread with my overly-long posts and endless waffle. This topic was great but I guess we have talked it all out now. Nobody else seems to take interest now, which is a shame...

I will keep my eyes open for any activity in this thread and will come back to it to keep the interesting debates going!


Thanks once again Mr_Mwindu! I foresee that you will become a great Jedi Knight!