PT Did Qui gon/obi wan make the right decision for the galaxy by training Anakin?

Qui gon won anakin's freedom, he bought him from watto the slave owner, and anakin won the podrace. He took Anakin to the Jedi council on Coruscant, but they said he was too old to be trained. Yoda said that skywalker's future was clouded, and that fear is the path to the darkside. At the end of phantom menace, darth maul kills Qui Gon Jinn and as qui gon dies, he tells obi wan to train anakin, because he is the chosen one. At the end of Episode 1, obi wan decides to anakin skywalker as his jedi padawan/apprentice, but Yoda said that while Anakin may be the Chosen One-which is ultimately is at the end of Return of the Jedi, eventually, but Yoda said that there was grave danger in Anakin's training and Obi wan was just like his mentor Qui Gon. But the council decided to allow him to be trained, and he becomes Obi-wan kenobi's apprentice. Palpatine said he will watch over skywalker's career with great interest (foreshadowing).

In episode 2, Anakin's mother dies. Since he was being trained as a Jedi and wasn't there to protect and save her, she died. He was very grieved by that, and wished he could learn to save people from dying. In a fit of rage, the sandpeople died at his hand, an entire tribe of them. His character was becoming darker because of that.

In Episode 3, this is when Anakin's future takes a dark path, in which Palpatine tempts him with the darkside with the power to save his wife Padme, who is now pregnant with princess Leia and luke skywalker, who receives Force vision of her death in childbirth to them. He tells mace windu that Palpatine is darth sidious, the sith lord and traitor. Sensing fear in the young jedi since that the other jedi sensed in him as a child, windu told anakin not to go with him to face Palpatine. Anakin, however, went.

Windu, about to defeat Palpatine once and for all. We learn here that the Sith plan to rule the galaxy, but Mace windu is about to stop that from happening. With temptations being told to him that he could save his wife from death, Anakin stops mace windu, saves Palpatine's life, thereby creating the Galactic Empire by stopping Mace windu from defeating Palpatine, which would have stopped it all. He, as yoda and the other jed feared, turns to the darkside and becomes the Sith Lord Darth Vader.

Without Anakin's help, windu would have defeated the emperor and the empire would never have existed, and all the atrocities done under darth sidious's command never would have happened.

He helps Palpatine, who is now the Emperor soon afterward, to hunt down destroy all the Jedi in the Temple, turning against the very order of knights he was once a part of. He becomes the Emperor's enforcer, and 2nd in command, in the new Empire, for over 20 years. For 20-30 years, at least 23 years , but probably a little more than that, the empire rules in tyranny under Vader's command. Episode 3-4 has a 19 year gap, 4-5 has a 3 yr gap, 5-6 has 1 yr gap, which is 23 years, but some time passed from the beginning and end of each episode, so it was probably more.

Alderaan is destroyed by the death star, and billions die. The empire wiped out and enslaved many of the galaxies-non humans, and planned to use the Death Star much more in the future. They did other terrible deeds, too, mentioned a lot in the Expanded universe. But, in the end, Anakin destroyed the Sith and the empire was defeated by the rebels.

So, Yoda's warnings and the council's warnings were true-Anakin became Darth Vader and an evil Sith. Does that mean that obi wan kenobi's decision to train him, and qui gon's too, was the right or wrong decision, in the long run, overall? Anakin did fullfill his role as the Chosen one, but, the question is, was it the best way for the galaxy to do it that way, by training Anakin? Some video on youtube said that Qui gon is the worst jedi ever, "responsible for the downfall of the republic, the rise of darth vader, the deaths of Jedi". So, did he doom the galaxy by training Anakin? If Anakin never left Tattoine, would the galaxy be better off, since he never would've become Darth Vader, which Qui gon is the one who took him away from home, and obi wan trained him, they were responsible? The council's foreshadowings were true. Anakin doomed the galaxy, and so did qui gon and obi wan by deciding to train him. But, things may not be like they seem.

I had a theory. Since mace windu said that if the prophecy is true, then Anakin is the only one who can bring the force into balance, aka destroy the Sith and restore peace to the galaxy. Anakin did just that in Episode 6. The question is not whether Anakin is the Chosen one, but rather, was training Anakin a good decision in the end on Qui gon and obi wan's part.

So, it's possible that, according to a theory I had, which may or may not be true, if anakin was never freed as a slave by Qui gon, the prophecy never would have been fullfilled, the Sith never would've been destroyed, and they would rule the galaxy in tyranny much longer. I know it sounds wierd, but that's what Windu said.

As part of evidence for my theory, here's why it might be true. Anakin was taken away from Tattoine, he became a Jedi, Palpatine revealed himself to be the Sith Lord Darth Sidious and traitor to the Republic, and he tempted him with dark powers to save his wife, Anakin told Mace windu that Palpatine was a sith and mace windu knew that the Sith ruled the galaxy in tyranny in the past. He went to go fight Sidious and stop him from taking over the galaxy, but Anakin stopped Mace windu and the empire was created, and it ruled the galaxy for 23 years as a dictatorship, and many people died.

However, it's possible, as weird as it sounds, that Anakin stopping Mace windu did not really cause the creation of the Empire and the atrocities they did. Because, if he was never taken away from Tattoine, he never could have told Mace windu about Palpatine, he never would've went to arrest Palpatine in the failed attempt to save the galaxy. The same thing would have happened. Because that way, anakin wouldn't be around to tell windu who palpatine was and get a chance to stop Windu, because, Mace windu never would've gotten the chance, without Anakin, to even be put in that situation to defeat the Emperor and save the galaxy. So, Anakin did not really create the Empire. It's kind of hard to explain.

But that way, without Anakin, could the galaxy be saved from the Sith? Would things have gone better. Is my theory true?

 

Yes,
No,
Maybe.

In other words: we don't know.

 

Personally, I think this is one of the biggest problems with the Star Wars "mythology" - and no, not a Lucas OR SW basher. If I didn't love the movies, I wouldn't still be rattling around this forum long after the last Prequel movie came and went!

To me, it sure looks like the entire job of the Chosen One is to kill Palpatine. Maybe the Chosen One could somehow stop Palpatine short of killing him...maybe.... but basically, the movies sure make it look like the Chosen One's job is to take out Palpatine. And I THINK we are to believe that if Mace Windu "stands down" and doesn't try to kill Palpatine, then Anakin wouldn't have fallen... maybe. Maybe Palpatine would have killed Windu and Anakin would have seen that the Sith are indeed evil... I don't know. But I think the symmetry of the "Mace has Palpatine at his mercy" scene, and the "Luke has Vader at his mercy" scene, suggests that. Mace choses the violent path, and evil results; Luke throws his weapon aside - not only not killing Vader but disarming himself before the Emperor - and balance is restored. The story is, I think... Anakin is the Chosen One, so training him was right, but mistakes were made. (And Luke's pivotal role, without all the "Dark Side' baggage, is why so many feel tempted to ask if HE shouldn't really be called The Chosen One!)...

The "problem", IMHO...is that the movies sure don't FEEL that way. I think that if you showed the movies to a total novice, who read NOTHING from outside - no interviews with Lucas or others, etc - they would have very ambivalent feelings about the training of Anakin, and Qui-Gonn's insistence on it. The Jedi have misgivings in Phantom Menace - and every one of those misgivings appear to be borne out. Anakin is angry, insecure, full of pride. The loss of his mother pushes him towards the Dark Side. He begins a clandestine forbidden relationship with Padme, and is willing to sacrfice everything (and everyone) to spare himself the pain of losing her. When the Jedi appear to have Palpatine defeated, Anakin intervenes, betrays the Jedi, and all but kills Mace Windu. He proceeds to fully betray the Jedi, slaughters those in the Jedi temple (including kids), chokes his pregnant wife, tries to kill his mentor, becomes Vader, and launches a career of terror and mass murder.

Hmmm. This "lets train Anakin" thing doesn't turn out very well.

Yes, yes, ...in the end, he does indeed "come back" to the light and finally restore order. The key words being "in the end" and "finally". But better late than never, I guess. And I THINK we are supposed to believe that if Qui-Gonn had left Anakin on Tatooine, the Emperor would still have come to power, and brought about great evil, and that no one could possibly have stopped him (there is an awful lot of predestination in the SW universe, it seems).. So in the end, yeah, his decision was "right".

What I am trying to say is that while I think I understand what Lucas is going for here, and I think I basically understand the role of the Chosen One, Lucas' story makes an emotionally unsatisfying case. Without the context of interviews with Lucas, etc, I strongly suspect a novice viewer is going to feel more sympathy for the Council than Qui-Gonn... it sure looks like this Anakin kid is VERY bad news, and causes or assists in causing an awful lot of suffering before finally doing the right thing.

 

What I am trying to say is that while I think I understand what Lucas is going for here, and I think I basically understand the role of the Chosen One, Lucas' story makes an emotionally unsatisfying case. Without the context of interviews with Lucas, etc, I strongly suspect a novice viewer is going to feel more sympathy for the Council than Qui-Gonn... it sure looks like this Anakin kid is VERY bad news, and causes or assists in causing an awful lot of suffering before finally doing the right thing.​

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The thing is, without Anakin the Empire probably would continued indefinitely. Palpatine didn't really need him for Order 66 and the formation of the Empire, and any old enforcer-type figure would have suited Vader's role in the OT fine. Without Anakin, there is never any end. Sure, the Rebellion would still have happened, but Palpatine wouldn't have been killed on the DS2, and the Rebellion would have been destroyed in ANH-without Anakin, there is no Luke, and therefore the DS1 would have destroyed Yavin 4 and that would've been the end of things.​

 

^

 

I disagree. I watched TPM first and my sympathy was always with Anakin and Qui-Gon more than the Council. And it's not just because the film focused on those two characters a great deal, but I agreed with the points Qui-Gon was making. Yes, Anakin was older than usual, but it was still wrong to treat him as a threat, which the Jedi did. He was a nine year old boy -- he could become anything with certain influences. It was Qui-Gon who could see the situation clearly:

"His future is uncertain -- he's not dangerous."

And that was the essential problem I saw in Anakin's training -- the Jedi viewed him as a threat or damaged in some way. They were expecting him to be problematic and so that's how he eventually grew up. It's one of the central notions in labeling theory and it influences kids especially.

I don't really see how Anakin is "VERY bad news," especially not in TPM -- he's only helped others and been kind to Qui-Gon and Padmé.

It always seemed to me that the reason Anakin was so susceptible to the Dark Side was precisely because of the way the Jedi treated him.

Part of the problem, I feel, is that a lot of viewer's can't see beyond Vader's shadow. When they hear the Council be concerned about training Anakin, for instance, all they can think is that this kid is going to become Darth Vader and that the Council is absolutely right. I think they ignore the little nine-year-old, innocent kid he is now because his future casts such an ominous cloud over him. It's similar with the Tusken slaughter -- a lot of people can't see the horribly traumatized young man that's horrified at his own actions. All they see is the first step towards Vader and thus they can't understand how Padmé would forgive him under such circumstances.

I feel like sometimes the response is slated towards, "Can't you see what he'll become?!" But the truth is, unless, you've seen the OT first, you really can't (or, at least, I didn't).

 

Pietts - respectfully, I think the movies tend to duck a key question. For example, you feel that the reason Anakin turned out as he did was because of the Jedi...how they treated him, how they raised him, etc. That, being suspicious of him from the start, expecting him to fail, they set him UP to fail, they created a self-fulfilling prophecy. I tend to think that the Council is right that Anakin is, while well meaning, essentially "damaged goods",that they do their best but that ultimately they were right, Anakin's early upbringing has left marks on him that make him a bad candidate for Jedi training. . But both of us are to a large extent operating without key information, because we jump from the young Anakin in MENACE to the significantly older Anakin in AOTC, without seeing how he was raised, treated, etc. That leaves both of us to fill in the blanks. When we see him "acting out" in AOTC and SITH, we have to speculate as to why.

The thing is, the Jedi "methods" seem to work pretty well for most of the SW heroes, with a few very noteable exceptions. By and large, they SEEM to know how to raise a Jedi to be a good "person". So when they say "Hmmm, this person doesn't seem to be a good candidate" and then the person turns out to be a very bad candidate indeed...hmmmm.

And at the end of the day, the "nature/nurture" argument is one that we might never be able to fully settle, even for a fictional character like Anakin. In real life, we see some great people who had super-tough upbringings, and some really awful people who seemed to get all the love and care and nurturing in the world. It is a complicated tangle, to be sure.

 

SHAD0W-JEDI

I do think the elements of self-fulfilling prophecy are unavoidable given the way the films are set up. But one sees this kind of thing play out in real life all the time -- teachers who are told random students are "gifted" for example, tend to treat those students as such and thus the children perform better as a result, although their actual intelligence hasn't changed. People, and especially kids, often conform subconsciously to expectations of them. That's why, in part, it's difficult to get children that live in environments where they are constantly put down to rise above their circumstances -- because they've internalized others' opinions about them as truth.

In regards to the training, I honestly don't think it was necessary to show this in great detail. I think the situation with Anakin's mother encapsulated a lot of the issues in that the Jedi treated his love and attachment towards her as something bad that should be suppressed/rejected rather than something to simply be incorporated into his training. Even the situation with Padmé exemplifies this -- with Yoda telling him to just "not grieve" as though that resolves anything for him (however well meaning that advice was).

That, and I have always gotten the impression from the films that if Qui-Gon had survived, that Anakin would have turned out better because Qui-Gon never indicated that he viewed Anakin's love for his mother as a problem which is where I found the majority of Anakin's issues to stem from -- including his susceptibility to Palpatine. Yes, Anakin was also very arrogant, but Yoda himself says that this is a trait increasingly common among Jedi, not just Anakin.

Plus, I feel that the "damaged goods" description is poor simply because it is refuted in the OT -- by Luke. Luke had family, experienced desire for revenge, felt love and attachment, and he became a great Jedi. I would argue, this is largely because in being a Jedi, he was never told that it was wrong to feel attached to other people.

 

@ Piett - I disagree with you, but largely in a matter of degree. I can see your points, and you support them very well. As I said, I don't think the movies allow for an unambiguous "one answer" - which isn't a bad thing.

The movies don't have time for a detailed, academic discussion of the Jedi philosophy, and so, I fear, it comes off as "don't get attached to anybody" and "if you love someone, that is bad", and I think there is a lot more to it than that. Many philosophies and religions espouse similar ideas - about the dangers of believing that one has ultimate control over life (or should), about the necessity of accepting that death is part of life, and so forth. And you must admit that, here too, the movies present a complex picture. Anakin is so afraid of losing Padme - of the pain that will cause HIM - that he is willing to betray the Jedi, betray democracy, kill his former mentors and trainers (and "friends"?), butcher kids, and so forth. He says he is doing it "for Padme", but she is (predictably) horrified, and when you get down to it, he is doing it for himself. So in some ways, again, don't the movies seem to bear the Council out? He loses his Mom, and goes on the murderous rampage against the Sand People, and he fears the loss of Padme and goes on to commit one atrocity after another. Sure looks like attachment..and fear...or maybe more accurately not the attachment but the inability to deal with loss once attached, the fear and pain of it... DO lead to suffering, in his case. A lot of it.

Its an interesting thing to kick around. And no question, knowing Anakin will become Vader DOES color early scenes, create a bias, as you note. Its like watching TITANIC and seeing a character talk about what they are going to do with their life and thinking "Dude, you have maybe another ten hours, tops!". . However, I suspect that someone coming in cold, NOT knowing that (that Anakin will become Vader) would tend to think that the Council blew it when they gave in despite their misgivings... although I don't think that is what Lucas necessarily intended.

 

Sure, no problem.

I don't necessarily think that the intention of the films is to paint the Jedi philosophy as bad, necessarily. After all, Anakin does say that compassion is central to a Jedi's life. Where I think the films are critical of the Jedi (at least the way I read it) is in the extremism of their approach. It's not that they're wrong for trying to get Anakin to let go of his attachments, it's that the films show them viewing his attachments, from the outset, as negative thing, when they don't have to be (Luke is an example). I think the movies don't bear the Council out, particularly, because I think Anakin's attachment issues are a direct result of the Jedi's mode of training. When he's not supposed to attach himself to anyone, but feels powerless to repress those feelings, they "bottle up" in a sense and become pathological. I don't think, for example, that Anakin would have reacted as nearly as poorly to his mother's death had he been allowed to contact her and talk about her. It's the same issue with Padmé -- Anakin essentially had no one to discuss his problems with beyond hypotheticals because he shouldn't have been attached to her in the first place. And that kind of situation is dangerous, because it leaves Anakin in a very emotionally isolated position -- he has no one to grieve with, no one to discuss his fears with (beyond vague discussions), and thus no one to really lean on in difficult times. Anakin can't go to the Jedi for help and stability and that makes him especially vulnerable to Palpatine.

In the case of the films, I've always felt that it was clear that had the Jedi approached Anakin's training similarly to Luke's that he would have been alright. But, unfortunately, I think they needed to learn from the mistakes they made with Anakin to be able to give Luke what he needed. I think this is borne out in the interplay between the PT and OT. Look at how Yoda responds to Luke's visions compared to Anakin's, for example.

See, I think that the Council "blew it" in the sense that they tried to break Anakin of his attachments when, really, it was something to be worked with, not suppressed. That's really where I see the biggest mistake being made. Had Qui-Gon trained Anakin, or even Yoda and Obi-Wan of the OT, I think Anakin's fall could have been avoided. In large part, I don't see the Council acceptance of Anakin as a trainee to be their "fatal" mistake but rather their inflexibility.

 

Can I say I think BOTH of you (Shadow-Jedi & PiettsHat) are right? I do. And that's the complexity of SW in a nutshell.

All these years and I've never noticd that parallel!

 

Training Anakin was the worst thing the Jedi order could have ever done. Leaving that dreaded slave on Tatooine would have been best for the galaxy.

 

Until the Sith found him. Then, not so much.

 

The reason I find this explanation hard to accept is that the Jedi Council, in their own way, made some pretty bad mistakes and choices. Like Anakin, they were partly responsible for the downfall of the Republic and their own Order. They helped set up the situation that Palpatine was able to exploit. I find it hard to accept the Jedi Council's opinion of Anakin as "damaged goods", when they were incapable of facing their own flaws.

If Anakin's upbringing made it impossible for him to be a bad candidate for Jedi training, why not view Luke in the same light? I don't think there is any "right" upbringing for someone to be a good candidate for Jedi training. How can I take the Jedi Council's wariness toward Anakin seriously, when they failed to foresee their own mistakes or Count Dooku as a future Sith Lord?

 

He doesn't say that in the film - is that from a book?

 

Well, I think so, I mean where would the galaxy be if Luke was never born?

 

Yeah. Palpatine would have gone ahead with what he did anyway.
But I'm sure another person could have been as awesome as Luke.

 

Ironically, the galaxy would probably have been worse off had Anakin been left on Tatooine, but Anakin himself would likely have had a much happier (if much simpler and less illustrious) life. Perhaps that's one of the messages the Saga is trying to impart -- that being one of the "important" or "chosen" people in history isn't always a good thing. Oftentimes, a life of normalcy and obscurity is the path to happiness.

 

True, Kyle Katarn would do it easily enough.

 

TS is totally correct.

The Jedi did not want him trained because they saw he had "a clouded future" which indeed he did. What they didn't see was, once that clouded future played out, he would fulfill his role as the Chosen One. It just took a lot more suffering and strife than the Jedi thought. Nonetheless, the ultimate destiny of ending the Sith was what he brought about in the larger picture. The chain of events was not what the Jedi Council expected from a Chosen One, but in the end, the result was that the Prophecy was true.

 

If Anakin was never taken to Coruscant, Palpatine would never Anakin he was Darth Sidious, Anakin wouldnt have told mace windu, windu wouldnt have gone to defeat Palpatine once and for all. Anakin saving Windu from palpatine was only because palpatine told him, not because Qui Gon took him to Coruscant. The empire still would have been created.

Or Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe if Anakin never helped Palpatine get rid of Windu, when Palpatine became emperor, windu would have stopped him a few weeks/months later on, defeating the empire quicker.

Maybe Qui Gon did doom the galaxy.

Heres one thing I don't get. Windu said that anakin was the only one who could bring balance to the force. I don't get that.

 

Darth Boba, let's just agree too disagree over here, dude. I mean, Without Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader, there technically would've have been an end to the reign of the Sith Empires, or to be more specifically, things wouldn't really have changed all that much!

Yes, Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious might've have probably escaped from the Death Star Two, however, even if he did escape from it's explosion, his death did not end the galactic empire.

Just check out the expanded universe over here. Neither his death nor the second death star's destruction had defeated the reign of the Galactic Empire. It had continued for years since after his death.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Civil_War

The death of an enemy leader does not automatically help/make their enemy's side to win their side of the war. If that were the case, Hitler would've have been defeated far much more sooner.........

 

I think your original point is absolutely correct. The Empire would still have been created and things may have been worse without Anakin's discovery. But bear in mind that Star Wars seems to have a lot to do with predestination: how many times did we hear, "It is your destiny," or, "Nothing happens by accident," or something about "the will of the Force."? Clearly Anakin was meant to bring balance, one way or another. Perhaps he was even meant to fall and be redeemed. But even if there was technically a way for him to bring balance without having fallen, he ultimately "could not escape [his] destiny."