Did Thrawn know that Palpatine had returned?

Although I haven't read Tatooine Ghost, I recall someone mentioning that Han makes a remark in it to the effect of "The way these Stormtroopers are fighting, you'd think the Emperor had returned or something" - an obvious reference to DE, even though the Stormies in question were part of Thrawn's forces.

As I recall from DE, though it's been a while and I might be wrong, didn't Palpatine call out to all his Dark Jedi and Hands and whatnot to come to Byss? It seems like Joruuuuuus would have caught the message.

And then finally, wouldn't Thrawn have found it strange that so much of the remaining Imperial forces had been mysteriously recalled to Byss? Seeing as Thrawn was on the up-and-up, and knew of at least one of Palpatine's storehouses (Wayland), it seems liekly that he'd have put one and one together.

Thoughts?

 

As far as I'm aware....no, Thrawn did not know. Palpatine was most certainly aware of what Thrawn was up to though, and was "saddened" to learn what Thrawn was up to. He felt both Thrawn and Mara should have known better.


For a slightly different take on Thrawn/DE Palps...just ask Thrawn McEwok about his Darkstryder Proxy War theory.

 

Well, there's a little ambiguity on the subject, and if Thrawn actually did know the Emperor was still alive and sitting on top of the largest percentage of the Imperial Navy's former arsenal, then it makes that period of time contain a vast amount of depth.

 

Indeed it does. The implications of that could be EXTREMELY far-reaching for many of the events of Zahn's books and the EU overall.

 

No, Thrawn died before the Emperor returned to reclaim the galaxy.

However, before his return, the Emperor had pretty much sucked all relevent resources out of the also-ran Imperials like Thrawn and the other warlords, bringing it all back to Byss and the Deep Core where the real Empire was healing. Palpatine had plans to kill Mara Jade for her failures and treachery to him. However, he died before that could occur.

Damn it if Brand couldn't have held on just a little bit longer to see that through to completion.

 

I think Thrawn may have known that something was going on in the Deep Core but why would he suspect that the Emperor was alive. The Rebels had gone public with his death immediately after Endor and if he was still alive, he would have shown himself to squash the rumors and regain control of the Empire, which was rapidly spiralling out of control. The real difference between Thrawn's genius and Palpatine's can be observed here: Thrawn cared about preserving a species' culture and their world's material assets; Palpatine was willing to sacrifice valuable assets to crush an enemy's spirit. Thrawn was completely unable to even understand the mindset that allowed Palpatine to meditate for 5 years (he spent one year trapped in Jeng Droga) while his Empire crumbled around him.

 

I don't think so. He probably knew that something was up, since all the ships were leaving, but I doubt he knew how big it really was.

 

If Thrawn didn't know the Emperor was alive and Given the fact that Thrawn was probably the best of Palpatines remaining military officers, why did Palpatine not simply order him to the core and tell him what he was planning. Surely the Emperors offensive would have been even more effective with someone like Thrawn commanding it.

 

The impression that I got is that Palpy was pretty ticked that Thrawn was trying to go into business for himself, and also he was using Thrawn to keep people's minds off of Byss.....I'll quote the DESB...

Still, he did grow occasionally concerned when one leader or another would come close to silencing the others and claiming the throne. Such ones were dealt with easily. He could let any of his Dark Side Adepts or other servants handle the matter. After all, he still had his Hands and his Noghri.

When his servant, Thrawn, made his claim, Palpatine could only watch in sadnesss. He had hoped Thrawn would know better. It was heartening to see how effectively Thrawn dealt with the cruel hand fate had dealt him. A lesser person would have dispaired. But a lesser person would have never been chosen as a Grand Admiral by Palpatine in the first place.

Still, no contender could ever be allowed to grow too powerful. It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return.

C'baoth was a more curious case. Thrawn was brilliant enough to realize only an insane Dark Jedi would violate the Emperor's ban ordering them all into silence years ago. While they waited in their castles for their Emperor's command, Thrawn had sought out the one who would have forgotten all such orders years ago. It was most satisfying to watch the mad Jedi's mind unravel.

And, then there were Mara Jade and the Noghri. They would all have to be punished for their treason...in time.

When both Thrawn and C'Baoth were slain, he knew it was time to announce his return.

 

Gah, why must El Clono be behind every damn thing?

 

Yes, I know that. But Palpatine was reborn and active during the time that Thrawn was active.

And yes, Thrawn would have heard how Palpatine had been killed. But he also knew the Empire had cloning technology that the Emperor decided was valuable enough to put in his private storehouses. He surely must have wondered about that, and when all the Imperial forces had been witrhdrawn to the Deep Core, he might have especially gotten his mind running.

And Palpatine must have had at least a small reason to wonder if Thrawn knew he had returned.

 

All of this "Palpatine Masterminded Everything!" crap makes me wish that Dark Empire could be given a nice, massive retcon to make the clone Palpatine a delusional clone with flash-pumped, falsified memories who was just activated after Thrawn's fall when Sate Pestage decided that it was time to unleash his pet project (which turned out to be something of a Frankenstein, growing beyond Pestage's control very rapidly).

 

I don't think Thrawn would have made the connection:

Cloning technology in Palpatine's storehouses = Cloned Emperor

Thrawn, although a military genius, seemed to have virtually no grasp of what a fully trained Jedi (or Sith) is truly capable of. Sure, he figured they can coordinate a fighting force with lethal efficiency, but I think Thrawn was of the opinion that dead=dead no matter who you are. Perhaps after Joruus caused that general to die, he might have figured "If one insane Jedi could do this, maybe the Emperor could come back from the dead." But that was too late, and he probably wouldn't have wanted another Force-dependent Imperial Navy again. He seemed pretty ticked about that.

 

I would agree with that assessment. Thrawn wasn't much for the supernatural.

 

If he made a clone, wouldn't he figure the Emperor would make a clone?

 

My thoughts exactly, EH. Thrawn himself made a clone; presumably, it either had his memories/personality, or Thrawn had found some way to transmit his own into the clone, or else there would have bene no point.

And if Thrawn did it, he must have known that Palpatine could, given that he did it all with Palpatine's stuff.

 

Well, Zahn has said in interviews that if he ever did a story about a Thrawn clone, it would KNOW it wasn't Thrawn, and the pressure to live up to Thrawn's legacy would be weighing down on his shoulders constantly. Because of this, from the man who created Thrawn, I don't think Thrawn would have done anything of the sort. If he considered it, he probably figured that a clone of Palpatine, without the essence and conditioning of the real man, would go mad like C'baoth, and fizzle himself out, or be of no real threat to him.

 

I don't really think that that has a bearing. We don't know that the clone in that story, assuming it's ever written, would be one of the ones made by Thrawn, or if it would have been made by the Chiss, Alliance, Remnant, etc. And if it wasn't made by Thrawn, using the technology he found on Wayland, we don't really know what Thrawn intended/hoped for when he cloned himself.

 

Sounds good to me.

 

Rotten...
"I think Thrawn may have known that something was going on in the Deep Core but why would he suspect that the Emperor was alive."

None of the discarded Imperial remnants that existed outside of the Empire in the Deep Core knew that any assets worth a darn were being funneled there.

As the Dark Empire Sourcebook informs us, this process was a carefully planned and executed one involving a bewildering shifting of resources all throughout the Empire, until it safely and secretly landed in the Deep Core. Palpatine loves his bewildering institutional structures, as the Empire is proof, and his Dark Empire plans to cull the herd and save the Empire from itself was one of the most complex plans he ever wrought.

Panther...
"and Given the fact that Thrawn was probably the best of Palpatines remaining military officers"

You hit it exactly. It was not fact. The fact was that Thrawn was a failure to the Emperor. The Emperor's plan centered on purging the Empire of such dead weight to make it more effective. Warlords such as Thrawn, Teradoc, Zsinj, et. al. were a drain on the Empire. So, the Emperor stripped them of all relevent resources they had and let them fend for themselves.

Certainly, some might question the need to cull the herd in such a dramatic manner. But, the Emperor needed people who could succeed for him, not die and fail for him. Now, in hindsight, Thrawn's rather megalomaniacal and egotistical claims of disobeying his Emperor multiple times prove to be rather stupid and short-sighted on our Grand Admiral's part. Such assertiveness and self-assuredness would be one thing if Thrawn could perform. Quite the opposite when it gets him and others killed.

Palpatine's plan proved true when pretty much the entire galaxy decided upon its own accord to flock back to rejoin the Empire upon the Emperor's triumphant public return.

And, you have to remember, Palpatine did not keep Thrawn from his plans. In usual Palpatinian fashion, Thrawn had a very[/]i important role to play in the strengthening of the Empire:

"It was no accident when Thrawn fell. Palpatine never knew if Thrawn guessed that he was being used to divert attention from his own return."
(DSB)

Thrawn should be so honored to have served the Emperor so well.

Two_Legs...
"But he also knew the Empire had cloning technology that the Emperor decided was valuable enough to put in his private storehouses. He surely must have wondered about that, and when all the Imperial forces had been witrhdrawn to the Deep Core, he might have especially gotten his mind running."

Sephy hit the nail just right I think. There's a few pieces of the puzzle. The cloning technology is merely the first step. Okay, even if Thrawn believed Palpatine cloned himself, so what. It's merely a clone.

And for all the talk of clones, Palpatine actually didn't need them. They were merely an easier route to do what he could accomplish without them - supplant the will of another being. The clones were merely a convenience for Palpatine, not a necessity. As the clones were a blank slate, Palpatine didn't need to waste any effort on subjugating any will. However, if he had to, he could and would. So, the entire clone tangent is superfluous to Palpatine's return anyway. After all, we know that he had his eyes on Anakin Soloembryo since pretty much day 1. A person who, definitely, was not a clone.

What Thrawn would also have to know was Palpatine's innermost secrets - that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith and had the knowledge and power to transfer his life essence to a new body. Even if Thrawn had knowledge of remaining clone tech, the latter two items are not things that Thrawn had all that much insight into. For all of Thrawn's military prowess, he was merely an NFS - a "mundane" - to Palpatine. Someone who could never be let in on Palpatine's true dream of a Force-powered intergalactic utopia.

 

Well, he isn't behind the Crystal Star or Callista Trilogy actrocity, I'm sure of that.


As for Thrawn knowing, who's to say where did Palpatine's scheming stop?

 

Or was he...? He has an immense Force prowess, like Palpatine did (sure, his "grandfather" was the Chosen One, but come on. Palpy was pretty impressive in his heyday). We never hear about the conception of any of the Solo children, but (unless I have my dates wrong) we can assume Jacen and Jaina were concieved during the honeymoon. What about Anakin? Suppose during the year between TTT and DE, Leia was imprisoned by servants of Palpatine and impregnated with a clone in embryonic form in the hopes that one with no growth stimulants would last its master a little bit longer. And how convenient that Anakin was killed off at 16, well before we could see the ravages of old age make him look strikingly similar to Ian McDiarmid. And with the way the clones had been dropping like flies, one that was grown slowly and more naturally would have been very apealing to the guy that has to jump from clone to clone.

I think I just figured out the real reason Anakin had to die, so we wouldn't see him grow up to look like Sidious. How about that? The time-traveling Darth Plagueis' brother is a clone of the apprentice who killed him some 70+ years earlier.

 

Thrawn also likes to make complicated schemes, and he has a knack for working things out. Although obviously it's impossible to know for sure, I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility that he could decipher where everything was being moved to.

But even then, Thrawn nearly succeded in toppling the New Republic. When you take into account that Vader, Palpy's pet, with all the resources of the Empire's most elite military forces at his disposal, couldn't even beat an insignifigant rebellion, and given how Palpatine loved to scheme, he must have had a plan to include Thrawn, if the latter had succeded.

But Thrawn did perform. The only reason he failed is because, like Palpatine, he was betrayed at what should have bene his victory by someone he thought was loyal to him.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Thrawn based his claims of Imperial leadership solely on the fact that Palpatine was long dead and that he was the highest-ranking Imperial officer left. If Palpatine suddenly revealed himself to the Galaxy, Thrawn would no doubt (out of self preservation if anythign else) have deferred to him.

While I agree that Thrawn would probably, on his own, have no idea what a Sith Lord was capable of, I think he might have known that Palpatine was a Sith (although Zahn obviously didn't when he wrote it). It seems to have been common knowledge in the Imperial fleet that Vader was a Sith, and Betrayal showed that at least a few moffs and admirals knew that Palpatine was one, too.

And as for him learning about what a Sith was capable of...well, who knows what C'baoth knew, or what else Thrawn might have found on Wayland?

Here's my idea. Genghis pointed out that Palpy would likely be pretty ticked off at the least by Thrawn (for whatever strange reasons). Thrawn trying to do so much for the Empire with so little resources might have been an attempt to try and redeem himelf in the eyes of Palpatine. Imagine: if Thrawn hadn't been assassinated, he would definitely have crushed, if not the entire New Republic, then at least its centralized leadership and reconquered the Core. Then, that doen, he unexpectedly makes a little trip to Byss where he presents Palpatine with the majority of his galaxy back, ready to be ruled again by the true sovereign etc etc etc...