DID YODA KNOW LUKE WOULD TURN ANAKIN FROM THE DARK SIDE?

in the ROTS novel it says yoda realises that fighting palpatine is not helping as fighting only brings about more darkness, so he gives up

however in ROTJ, obi1 & yoda send luke to FIGHT vader. ob1 even says that if luke cant kill vader the emporer will have won & yoda says u cant be turned back from the dark side

hasnt yoda & ob1 learned their own lesson?

 

They send him to FACE Vader and the Emperor. They have trained him to be passive. I think Yoda was banking on Anakin...but Obi-Wan has certainly given up.

The 'No, there is another!' is open to some serious interpretation. Leia or Anakin? Make up your own mind.

 

Watch ESB and RotJ again. I just watched them both yesterday and it was interesting to listen with a new ear. Neither of them ever said Luke needed to KILL Vader. Yoda kept saying Luke had to CONFRONT him and Obi-Wan said he had to FACE him. Neither said that killing Vader was a requirement, though it was certainly implied.

 

I agree. They only told Luke that he needed to confront Vader, neither ever said anything about killing him. Luke reads that into it himself, although OB1 obviously did not correct him.

I have had this discussion before, you either will love my theory or hate it.

I think that both OB1 and Yoda were willing to train Luke to try what OB1 could not accomplish. I started another thread on this board about how I thought OB1 in ROTS did not seem to be very willing to turn Anakin back, but I am taking this discussion based on what I saw in the OT.

Two things make me think this - 1. The look OB1 gives Luke and then DV right before surrendering to the force. It was kind of an all-knowing smile, like he knew what was gonna happen and he was thinking, "there is your son and you dont even know it." 2. The look OB1 and Yoda give Anakin and then Luke as ghosts at the end of ROTJ. Instead of surprise, they seem to be satisfied and proud that Luke was able to accomplish what he did. The look like they knew the ending all along.

 

they did not want luke to know vader was his father, they were concerned he would join him. yoda and obi both took a huge chance in lukes training. they walked a very fin line. luke could have responed to their "lie" in a very different way. they intened luke to kill vader.
rotj luke says "I can't kill my own father" obi says "then the emperor has already won"

dispite their teachings about non attatchement. obi still cares for anakin. so he could not finish the job. by not telling luke they were hopping he would not have any attachment's to vader. but in the end that attatchment is what brings balence to the force.

 

I've been around the block on this one before many times.

Ultimately, it's apparent through dialogue that the Jedi have given up on Anakin Skywalker and believe Darth Vader to be a completely different person who is a loyal servant to the Empire and "only a master of Evil."

Yoda and Obi-Wan are both very passive in the PT and in the OT. Passiveness doesn't necessarily mean that the Jedi don't fight. When it comes to the Sith, who are destroying the Galaxy, and the very real heartfelt struggle of the Rebellion, fighting IS necessary.

Luke is sent, in ROTJ, to "face" Vader. Face DOES mean "to fight" in this instance, because Obi-Wan says that Luke must do so "again," as in just like when he did it in ESB - just that this time Luke is ready for it both physically and mentally. So, at the very least, Luke is sent in for a physical confrontation (with lightsabers) with his father.

Now, did they intend for Luke to kill Vader? I don't think Obi-Wan felt Vader would have given Luke any other choice. After all, Anakin tried to kill both Padme and Obi-Wan, and instead of feeling remorse for what he did to Padme, he continues to serve the Emperor and kill people. So, I don't think Obi-Wan nor Yoda saw family as the key to get Anakin to return to the light.

Only Luke and Padme express a belief in Anakin while Obi-Wan seems definitely more negative with his feelings about his ex-friend. Yoda, who is more zen-like and passive than Obi-Wan, encourages the confrontation, but I think he still maintained that the Sith need to be "destroyed."

 

Of course Yoda wanted Luke to turn Vader back. In ESB, Yoda tells Luke that he does not need his weapon when he goes into the cave. In the cave, he kills Vader and sees his face in Vader's mask, meaning very literally that if he kills Vader, he will become the next sith apprentice. So in Jedi, instead of fighting Vader, he gives Vader his lightsaber, and tries to convince him to turn back in that hall on the base on Endor. Obviously that was the plan. Obi Wan and Yoda couldn't turn Anakin back because he felt they had betrayed him. If Luke then came storming in trying to kill Vader after he already knew he was his father, Vader wouldn't have had any mercy on him either. So no, they wern't sending him to fight.

 

I agree. That is an excellent point about the cave. However, I do think that Luke needed to be ready to kill Vader.

What I mean by this is that Anakin had a choice to make. He made the wrong one. Yoda and Ben need Luke to make the right one, and they need DV to see him do it. THATS what I interpret Ben as meaning when he tells Luke that the Emperor has already won if Luke cant kill DV. Its gotta be a conscious decision. If you notice, Yoda and Ben never talk about DEFEATING Vader, only confronting him. Whenever they are talking about defeating or destroying someone, they are talking about Palps.

You gotta remember, Yoda's intnentions were to kill 2 birds with Luke - Defeat Palps, and rebuild the Jedi Order ("pass on what you have learned"). If they had made Luke into a Vader-killing machine, then he was merely a tool and really served no other purpose, and basically would have been Darth Maul.

 

Yoda doubted that Luke could defeat Vader AND the Emperor in combat at the same time, but he had faith in Luke's potential to defeat the Empire in another way (by turning his father away from the Dark Side).

 

I'm a strong believer that at some point after ESB and before ROTJ, Luke has an epiphany or an awakening of some kind. Throughout the movies he is constantly learning the most important life lessons from various wise men, each of whom have a unique perspective. During the first two movies Luke makes many naive mistakes, right up to the end of ESB where he confronts Vader before completing his training. But from the beginning of ROTJ he seems confident that he's doing the right thing, doing what must be done.

Whether Yoda knew exactly how Luke would defeat the emporer is hard to say. He did know that Luke would not kill his own father unless he was feeling much anger and hate, which would mean he'd be susceptable to Sidious' attempts to turn him to the dark side. The cave is a warning, but I doubt Yoda ever explicitely told Luke how to act. Luke needed to do it with a pure mind, he needed that intimate knowledge that he was right in order to have the bravery to stand up to Vader and Sidious in that all important moment.

 

The 'I can't kill my father/then the emperor has already won' lines take on new meaning now that we've seen Obi was unable to kill Anakin. In Sith, Obi should have killed Vader when he had the chance, and in Jedi he knows that. He knows that if Luke gets the chance to kill Vader, he has to do it. But still, I believe they did not want him to, especially Yoda.

 

Yeah, I think the key word in those two oft-quoted lines is the word "can't", not necessarily the word "kill". I think it's made deliberately easy to mishear so that you'll BELIEVE he must kill Vader, and thus be surprised when the victory comes through other means. This point is even furhter confused by other language from Kenobi in which he casts doubt onto the possibility of redeeming his father. But once you get over that initial viewing of Episode VI, you kinda quickly realize that Obi Wan that the emphasis should be placed, as Hamill does, on the word "can't". Kenobi is saying that if he's not prepared to kill his father, then the Emperor has already won.

In the light of the entire saga, we now understand Kenobi's meaning in Episode VI even better. He doubts Luke's chances if Luke is at all unsure he has the will to kill his father--because that was probably Obi Wan's failing. He didn't want to deliver the killing blow, and in letting nature take its course, he unwittingly allowed Vader to live. We also see why Kenobi has doubts about redemption, because he saw both himself and his wife fail in this, and figures that they were closer to Anakin than Luke could possibly be. So while he's not 100% sure it can't be done, he's got very good cause to believe it highly unlikely. Thus, if Luke isn't prepared to kill his Father, the Emperor "has already won". It's perfectly logical, and doesn't make Obi-Wan any less of a Jedi for saying it.

Now, I do think Yoda is playing a deeper game than Obi Wan. Yoda's focus is maybe a little more on the Emperor than Vader. I do think he sees redeeming Vader as a critical step to overthrowing the Emperor. We're into the area of speculation a bit here--because there's no reason why Obi Wan couldn't believe this as well--but it's entirely possible that Yoda thinks the only way to get rid of the Emperor is by having Vader turn on the Emperor. This would be the fulfillment of the prophecy after all. It's possible to read into Obi Wan's Episode III, "You were the Chosen One!" a significace in the tense of the verb. Maybe Kenobi stops believing in the prophecy at this point. But we never see any evidence at all that Yoda doesn't believe in the prophecy. The furhest Yoda ever goes is to say that he doesn't agree with training the boy, even though he is, admittedly, the Chosen One.

 

When Luke says that there is good in him, Obi-Wan seems doubtful. I don't think that Obi-Wan ever thought that Anakin could be saved. Even when he fights him in the Death Star he does not even try to persuade him to turn back from the Dark Side of the Force. Also, in ROTS Yoda makes it clear that the prophecy was misread. Clearly, Yoda and Obi-Wan had given hope that Anakin could be converted, and it is only Luke who manages to save him.

 

I think Obi-Wan lost all hope in Anakin on the sand banks of Mustafar.
Yoda still seems to hold out some hope, though.

You gotta remember, Yoda's intnentions were to kill 2 birds with Luke - Defeat Palps, and rebuild the Jedi Order ("pass on what you have learned"). If they had made Luke into a Vader-killing machine, then he was merely a tool and really served no other purpose, and basically would have been Darth Maul.

That's a really good point. Luke's given a crash-course in Jedi training in the hopes of getting him capable of fighting Vader, but, as is Yoda's way, he's also giving him several spoonfuls of Jedi philosophy along the way. Not just "stab like this, chop this way" fighting stuff.

In fact, we never even seen Yoda showing Luke how to wield a lightsabre, although the book does. I kinda like the movie version better...Yoda teaches Luke how to sense and use the Force, and this increased knowledge leads to Luke being able to use it when fighting Vader.

 

its not so much that they want luke to kill vader as its they don't even see redemtion as a possibility.

good point about the traing. yoda wants luke to understand the nature of the force. the good from the bad. the philosopy is mor important then the power that will come from it. that is ultimatly how luke wins his understanding that the force is a power of good and fighting is not the answer eveytime.



on a side note that brings a line of ROTS to mind. grivious calls obi the "negotiator" which I think is actually very important. it means obi is always looking for a solution not just fighiting because he wants to win the war.

 

I agree that Yoda knows that killing Vader is not all he needs. Yoda is thinking of bringing the Jedi back as he says to Luke "when I die, the last of the Jedi you will be".
While Obi-Wan focuses more on destroying Vader, Yoda is playing a deeper game.

I don't think Yoda actually knows that Luke will turn Anakin back, but he senses that Vader is hesitating about and that gives Yoda hope that it might actually happen.

 

In the classic trilogy thread, there's a topic about the cave on Dagobah, and I'm pretty much just paraphrasing what was written over there.

Basically the cave seen can be viewed as a direct preview of the end of ROTJ. Luke goes in to face his biggest fears (go figure it turns out to be Vader), but has fear in his own soul, so he brings his lightsaber. After he chops Vader's head off, he finds his own face inside the mask. This means, if you kill Vader, you'll become the next Sith (exactly what Sidious is hoping for in ROTJ)

And Yoda is right there watching the whole thing, giving a dissapointed sigh. So I think Yoda knew Luke would have to use non-violent means to beat Vader and the Emporer.

DarthSyphus this is in direct opposition to what you wrote, but from what I've read in my short time on this board you have a very respectable opinion. Care to elaborate on your last post? (I agree that Obi-Wan had basically given up hope of saving Vader)

 

I think, one of the most important factors is the DOUBT Luke stirrs up in Vader.

Doubt, and that Vader - the Anakin he once was - actually SEES his son - and KNOWS that this is his son.

And with Luke he saw something more : An echo of the Love he had felt when he had been together with Padme ... at a time.

 

After all, Anakin tried to kill both Padme and Obi-Wan, and instead of feeling remorse for what he did to Padme, he continues to serve the Emperor and kill people. So, I don't think Obi-Wan nor Yoda saw family as the key to get Anakin to return to the light.

That's more a sign of Anakin/Vader giving up on life. The only reason he turned to the dark side was because of Padme, so when she's gone, and he believes it to be by his hand, there's really nothing left for him to do. In everything that he's involved in from that point on he's the mystery man, he does his master's bidding, and spends the rest of his time meditating and studying the force, because with Padme gone he doesn't see the need to do anything other than lead an aimless life, which is further proof that Anakin was always in some way still there, he may have been buried incredibly deep, but he was still there in a minute form.

 

I think Yoda did know. He knows the Anakin is loyal and that he will remain loyal until he feels betrayed or backed into a corner. Yoda probably knows that Anakin will never overthrow the Emperor without some external motivation, ie Luke.

Once Anakin sees that the Emperor will kill Luke he probably feels betrayed. He also knows that he is dispensible to the Emperor now that his son is in the picture as the new Sith nominee. So Anakin is betrayed by the Emperor and his loyalty to his family kicks in and he saves Luke.

Even though Yoda is pretty negative toward Luke, I think he felt comfortable dying/becoming one with the Force because he knew Anakin would not allow his son to die or become the Emperor's new puppet.

 

because with Padme gone he doesn't see the need to do anything other than lead an aimless life

I don't think that Vader is leading an aimless life after Padme dies. He seems to be quite focused in his task of defeating the rebels, serving the Emperor, and bringing order to the galaxy.

 

Geezasfm, I think that Yoda is disappointed in the cave scene, because Luke shows fear in the cave. Yoda is training him to defeat evil, without becoming evil, and Luke's fear and impatience leads him to evil. That is why he does not want Luke to rush to face Vader, because he thinks he is not ready. I don't see how the cave scene shows that Yoda knew that Luke would have to defeat Vader with non-violent means.

Also, if Yoda thought that Luke's compassion for his father would awaken his good side, why didn't he tell him that he was his father?

I think Yoda and Obi-Wan lied to Luke because they suspected that he might not be willing to kill him if he knew the truth. Yoda already knew that Obi-Wan was unwilling to face him and finish the job because he was his friend, so he obviously feared that Luke would be quite unwilling to kill Vader if he knew he was his father.

 

Well, i can't argue with that.

Overall, it seems that Yoda nor Obi-Wan knew exactly what would be necessary to beat Vader and Sidious. They just knew the skills and philosophies that would be necessary to prepare Luke for the big moment (and furthermore, they're not exactly confident that they've done the greatest job either)

 

I don't think that Vader is leading an aimless life after Padme dies. He seems to be quite focused in his task of defeating the rebels, serving the Emperor, and bringing order to the galaxy.

He does all of those things because he serves his master, the fire that once burned inside of him is gone the moment he learns that Padme is dead. His days of questing for power are gone, his days of caring about anything or anyone are gone, all that he does is what his master bids. Other than that he spends all of his time studying the force and meditating, that is a person who is resigned to his lot in life and no longer has the desire to do anything else because everything that he loved and cared about is gone.

 

His days of questing for power are gone, his days of caring about anything or anyone are gone, all that he does is what his master bids.

No, because he obviously wants to fight the Emperor, but is too weak to do so. That is why he asks Luke to join him to end the conflict and bring order to the galaxy. He obviously wants power and is driven to acquire it.