Lit Discussing Terms: Which Star Wars concepts need names? Should "Grey" and "Dark" Jedi be discarded?

For as long as Star Wars has produced material beyond the scope of the films, there have been ideas that have fallen outside of the simplistic categories that the movies tend to deal with. This is especially apparent whenever a character defies easy categorisation as either Jedi or Sith, and they are lumped into "Grey" or "Dark" Jedi, which are both oxymorons as far as I'm concerned. Ahsoka introduced "Bokken" Jedi, which does actually makes sense. Ezra is still a Jedi, just not one that was trained within the official Order.

I was wondering which other ideas in the Star Wars universe lack a satisfying name, and what you would suggest as an official term.

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"Grey" Jedi seems to cover a wide variety, ranging from Jedi who are more independent, to those that border on "Dark" Jedi and use the dark side. The former, characters like Qui-Gon, don't need to be lumped together into a category in my opinion, unless their independence is officially sanctioned, which is where the term "Wayseeker" applies. I really like this concept, just because a Jedi doesn't follow the Council doesn't mean they are any darker/greyer than more orthodox Jedi.

The individuals that are called grey because they are "in the middle" are interesting characters, though I do still think they have a misunderstanding of what true balance in the Force is. The dark side is inherently corrupting, and I disagree with the idea that anyone can tap into it regularly and still be in balance. That is an EU element that I am glad to see go. The Bendu from Rebels is an interesting case, and I hope that we see him revisited. Perhaps "Benduism" could be a term for the search for mastery of both light and dark? Really, I think there ought to be a general name for Force-users that wield lightsabers. So far, "Jedi" has often served that purpose.

"Dark" Jedi is also a frustrating term. A Jedi can be tempted by the dark and still be a Jedi (if not a very good one), but if a person is at the point where they themselves are described as "dark", then they aren't truly a Jedi anymore. Again, this is where I think a generic Force-user term would be helpful (maybe incorporating the term "dai" as seen in Dai Bendu and Je'daii). Then there's those dark side users who serve the Sith while not being Sith Lords themselves. Using the Legends Sith vocab, one could make the name "Qojen," meaning "Way/Path of the Dark", and apply that to Ventress, Maul post-TPM, maybe even Kylo Ren.

Bit of a rambling post, but I'd love to read others' thoughts on this topic. Is there even any problem with the terms Grey Jedi and Dark Jedi?

 

"Grey Jedi" needs to die, IMO. It's widely misused (the original context in TPM-era materials is totally different than the more common meaning) and betrays a total misunderstanding of what the "light" and dark sides actually are.

However, I think "Dark Jedi" makes sense as at least an in-universe term, although I do find it rather pedestrian and suspect that's why it's become less common. To an awful lot of people in the GFFA, especially those not well-versed in the Force, any Force user is a "Jedi", and so it makes a lot of sense that they'd call evil Force-users who don't obviously belong to some other organization "Dark Jedi".

 

True. That certainly justifies the term's existence as a common name for any dark side user. But I feel like the Sith and Jedi would have some other name for them, considering neither would probably want to call the dark side's servants "Dark Jedi".

 

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretations of the Jedi, force, and darkside, but I respect your enthusiasm in making this post.
The Jedi, much like the Sith, is a code --- whether an individual applies that code for good or ill is largely up to them. So a Dark Jedi makes as much as a Light Sith, or a Light Jedi or Dark Sith. Same logic applies to "grey" force users. I don't like the idea of stripping away the complexity of alignments (dark side, light side, etc) when it comes to factions because it just feels so gatekeepy and reductive.

>The Bendu from Rebels is an interesting case, and I hope that we see him revisited. Perhaps "Benduism" could be a term for the search for mastery of both light and dark?

The Bendu was a monster squatting on a random planet at the ass end of the galaxy. Was a silly throwaway concept. I don't see how that can be extrapolated into a code or belief set. Makes as much sense to develop an ideology around Abeloth, or some random Hutt

 

See the thing is, the Sith and Jedi are particular organizations with specific creeds. They aren't the general term for lightsiders or darksiders - there are plenty of other groups for both (Fallanassi and Knights of Ren, for instance, respectively) and individuals who fall along either line without belonging to any group (in particular I remember the rpg having a dark side serial killer with connections with other groups or even knowledge of what the force really was)

So I see no reason for there to be a general word for grey force users or nonsiders or whatever. Just stick with their organizations if they are in one (such as the navigator guild from the Ascendancy trilogy) or if they are unaffiliated, just force-sensatives or adepts.

 

Dark Jedi makes sense - see Baylan Skoll and his apprentice.

Gray Jedi does NOT make sense - unless they're calling themselves that to distinguish them from other Dark Jedi, but they're still Dark Jedi.

 

Well... lets divide Grey Jedi into... "Grey" Jedi and "Gray" Jedi.... does that help? Nope, but it is fun!

And then there is Bendu, the middle path. So Jedi Bendu are different from Jedi Knights or Bendu Monks. Knights are proactive, even if lightsided, Monks passive, Jedi Bendu kinda a middle ground.

Is it only always a question of alignment? We have many variants of Jedi, some follow a Council, some the Force (Wayseeker), some a government, some an order or idea. There are many Dark Jedi or Sith variants too.

 

Bendu is just TLJ Luke, but with a bigger temper if disturbed.

 

I feel like between Bendu and the Father, both characters that were ostensibly "in the middle," that the very notion of "grey" was sort of consistently portrayed as wrong in some way. Bendu didn't want to get involved until the Empire was literally laying waste to his world and came after him. The Father thought Anakin needed to be brought to Mortis to control his Son and Daughter, as a user of both the light and dark sides of the Force, and it only exacerbated the problem of the Son and threw Mortis into chaos.

 

Jedi and Sith are religious organisations, not specific sides of the Force, nor are they defined by the powers they use. You could theoretically use Dark Side-aligned powers while retaining your loyalty to the Jedi Code. I'm leaning towards there actually being two Dark Sides, your average one where you got Plo Koon, Mace Windu, Dooku, Starkiller, and most 'reasonable' Sith Lords sit, which amounts to Force Lightning to a varying degree and some other additions. Then there's the eldritch Dark Side, which is Valkorion and the Mortis Gods.

Palpatine and Vader weren't quite there, but they had the potential to be.

 

… No.

 

It is pretty much how it is, in effect, when it concerns the EU and even in certain new canon stuff. Canon can't be cherry-picked. SWTOR's part of Legends, and Rebels and ST's part of DisCanon.

 

No, it's not how it is.
Jedi/Sith aren't really religious organizations. Not in the context meant on Earth. They're not trying to convert. They don't have religious rituals or practices. The Force is scientifically real.
There are no "two dark sides".
Your powers DO define you.
You can't use the dark side while staying loyal to Jedi principals, which are explicitly against the dark side.
(You could use the dark side while superficially loyal to the Jedi as an organization, but they are still darksiders.)
Excusing some Sith Lords as "reasonable" and moderate-enough is missing the whole point of Star Wars.

 

They are both referred to as a religions. You’re correct that using the dark side is against the Jedi code and people like Mace and Plo are not dark siders.

I do think there’s some level of nuance and degrees of corruption. Not all dark siders or Sith are the same level of evil

 

Yes, but to use the dark side at all is to be on a downward slope towards evil. You can overcome it, but it's not like KotOR where if you alternate between charitable and reprehensible acts you can remain stable on a certain "level of evil". There's the natural side of the Force, and the twisted form that the Sith and other dark-side users utilise. Baylan is on that slope, and he will either be saved or utterly lost (at least spiritually,) by the end of his story.

I do think that there is a lot of interesting philosophical difference to be explored within the dark and light sides of the Force, which is partially why I'd like to see the terminology expanded. It's hard to imagine other organisations of light-side Force users when there's no word for them besides "Jedi".

 

Its real, but Sith and Jedi are a particular set of beliefs. They aren't universal, either. Sith didn't exist since the dawn of the Force, they spawned off from the Jedi, while the Jedi themselves spawned from the Je'daii.

People like Lana Beniko and Darth Marr are solidly Sith, but they aren't a threat to all that is living. Quite a lot of SWTOR Sith are like them. Certain Banite Sith like Tyranus and Caedus also have very grounded motives. They're solidly evil, yes, but the Galaxy wouldn't exactly be eaten by eldritch entities if they were to remain in power.

I mean Electric Judgment is just Force Lightning lite, there's no way around that. Luke uses Force Choke, Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr have the option of using Dark Side powers, and I believe Korr, not the clone version, does use some form of Dark Side ability in Riptide as well. Galen Marek throws around Force Lightning like its nothing, showing no signs of Dark Side corruption whatsoever. The only explanation to this is that there's an outer Dark Side, which is just using the Force aggressively, and an inner Dark Side, which is the corrupting influence that could threaten any Force User if not kept in check. And whether you throw lightning or kill people doesn't effect that, because Jedi kill people by the hundreds on average throughout galactic history.

If we're talking purely the movies, maybe, but this is the EU/Literature forums. If we take ALL of Star Wars, even including New Canon examples, the 'Dark Side is cancer' thing has gone the way of the dodo and neither Legends nor Disney were interested in keeping that alive. Unless you REALLY stretch the concept of the Dark Side and introduce a theoretical corrupting Dark Side and a regular Dark Side, which is just using the Force aggressively.