Discussion about the Jedi Code

Okay, there are three different versions.

1:

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

This one was the original code of the Jedi.

2:

There is no emotion, There is peace.
There is no ignorance, There is knowledge.
There is no passion, There is serenity.
There is no chaos, There is harmony.
There is no death, There is the Force.

This is the code we all know very well.

3:

There is no emotion. There is peace in the Force.
There is no ignorance. There is knowledge in the Force.
There is no passion. There is serenity in the Force.
There is no chaos. There is harmony in the Force.
There is no death. There is the Force.

And this is one i found somewhere (I don't remember where).

Alright now, tell me, what is your opinion of them? Is one less strict then the other? Does one seem more flexible? By reading them, what is your impression? How does the word choices affect the code's meaning?

This information will help me greatly in my fics. I may have more questions to jog your minds in the morning. Right now its late and i should get to bed.

 

Excellent thread. Internet is kicking me off. Back in a minute. (I hate my bloody connection)

 

I prefer the first one. The rest sound like absolutes to me

 

Yeah, this is an awesome thread. Personally, I like the first one the best, because it seems more balanced to me. Like, yes you will feel turmoil because of your emotions, but you will also achieve peace because of them.

 

Numbers 2 and 3 sound like something you'd teach the younglings before they have a deep understanding of the Force. Maybe after you're knighted (if that's the right word), they take you aside and say, "Okay, this is what we taught you. And this is how it really is . . ." Or maybe they just know without needing to be told.

Just my two cents' worth.

- lazy

 

I like the first one, but I'm more comfortable with the second because that's what's been ingrained into my system as the Jedi Code.

To me, the Old Jedi Order seemed to struggle with absolutes. Everything was either Light or Dark, and there was no Gray, no middle line, which I think the New Jedi Order was beginning to discover, so for them, perhaps the 1st, the original, would be their revised code.

*pauses*

*rereads what she wrote*

*figures it makes very little sense when written, but made a lot more sense in her sleep-deprived brain*



Interesting discussion points...

 

And yet, "Only Sith think in absolutes."

Further question: looking at the various forms of the Code, how do they affect characterization? I mean, it's obvious that different forms of the Code will produce different kinds of Jedi, but on a deeper level, how will it affect how characters think about *themselves*, as well as the universe? I mean, would Anakin be a different person if he wasn't constantly being told that his emotions were distractions and that he should be searching for peace? Would Obi-Wan be less dogmatic if he hadn't be raised believing that there were absolutes, and that the Jedi strived for certain ones?

Just asking.

 

Of course, "Only the Sith think in absolutes" is an absolute statement

I think one of the greatest problems the Jedi had in devising their Code is the difficulty in creating a concise and comprehensive set of guidelines to mold themselves around that can cover all of the complex situations that their lives throw at them. That, and the endless interpretation that so few words are bound to cause.

I mean, it's obvious that a guy spinning around, lopping off heads and cackling at odd hours of the night is going down the dark path, but how do you identify a smaller subset of problem behaviors? The argument for no attachments is definitely pretty strong, but at the same time the cold detachment that it can cause can be problematic too.

 

I prefer Code #2 because it's so absolute. I think it exemplifies the issues Jedi face in the Order. With so many absolutes, there becomes a question of what's right and what's wrong. I think it adds depth to Jedi characters.

 

*Snirk* I thought I recognized #3.
search for my screen name on this page

Yeah, I made the addition (at least as far as I know...).
Basically I seem to be one of eight people on the globe who like the #2 code, and I was trying to illuminate why. The addition of in the Force seemed to clarify it for me. This code is about the Force that the Jedi try to bring themselves into oneness with. My point being that this is the Jedi Code or motto, i.e. what the aspire to achieve.
I don't think they are saying they have achieved it, but it is their goal.

The problem I have with #1 and much of the EU Jedi in general is they seem to want it both ways. I find that flies in the face of generations of mythology, which is at the heart of the Star Wars Galaxy. What hero can achieve greatness without sacrifice? Before their first call to adventure, the hero must sacrifice to allow their potential for greatness to come forward. Anakin left his mother behind, Gilgamesh lost his best friend Inkadoo, Luke lost his Aunt and Uncle, Odessius had to leave his family and kingdom, Obi-Wan was raised in the ways of the old Jedi.

I'm not saying the EU Jedi don't struggle, far from it. But in myth the sacrifice comes first, then comes the call to adventure and the arc that follows.

This is why I like the #2 code, it calls the Jedi to sacrifice as they seek an ideal. This is also why I think Lucas said the OR Jedi were forbidden to love, it is their sacrifice.

Of course this sacrifice allows them great strength and weakness. I imagine this weakness isolated the Jedi from the people of the galaxy. I imagine it also contributed to making them arrogant. Of course I'd argue that if the Jedi were fully aligned with the will of the Force this would not be so.

Then again, I was thrilled when I heard only the Sith speak in absolutes, because now the Jedi can be all things and none.

Thoughts?

 

Ok, I'm pulling out the revised version of the Code I wrote for an RPG character (actually, I'm RPing Anakin, but eh).

There is emotion, but when he must, a Jedi places it aside in favor of peace.
There is ignorance, but a Jedi strives always for knowledge.
There is passion, but when he acts, a Jedi acts with serenity.
There is chaos, but a Jedi works for harmony.
There is death, but it is only a gateway to the Force.

See, there's such a thing as too absolute. Humans (and I'm assuming, most other sentient beings), are not designed to be emotionless creatures. Yes, it can be said that the state of detachment from one's emotions is an ideal to be strived for, but the impression that I got from the OR Jedi is that they didn't believe in the Code as an ideal so much as a fixed set of rules to be followed. This may be obtainable to those raised to life like that, but not to people like Anakin, who lived outside the Temple before he started training. Hence my attempt at a middle ground, which acknowledges the human need for emotion, while also recognizing the Jedi way of peace. I sure as hell wouldn't want an emotional wreck of a Jedi assigned to help me, but at the same time, I wouldn't want a Jedi who didn't feel, either.

As for sacrifice, yes, mythologically sacrifice is required of a hero. And that's fine, if you want to treat your characters as purely archetypecal. However, anyone who is trying to write characters as human beings must realize that sacrifice isn't always big and grand, such as the loss of a person, limb, or ship. Sometimes, it's merely choosing to do your duty and not letting your emotions control you while doing that duty. Afterwards, you can (and probably should) rage and rant and let out every emotion, but in that one moment, you have to be a Jedi and you have to be impartial. That's sacrifice.

 

Speaking of absolutes and the Sith, let's look at the Sith Code as taken from KotOR:

Peace is a Lie, there is only Passion.
Through Passion I gain strength.
Strength Gives me power.
Through power I achieve victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

The only absolute I see here is "Peace is a Lie." A strong absolute, yes, but perhaps less absolute than the Jedi code?

The Sith Code seems to speak passionately of freedom as opposed to the Jedi Code of peace and obedience to the Force. Perhaps it's just Sith propaganda, but perhaps more.

Thoughts?

 

I think you're right about the freedom, though in the case of the Sith that includes complete removal of moral standards and everything else. Peace and obedience to the Force are closely held tenets of the Order, but what happens when war breaks out with the Sith, who are arguably just as "obedient" to the Force as the Jedi?

I'm sure to a degree it is propaganda, but it seems at least somewhere along the line the Jedi dropped the ball. Perhaps their beliefs weren't completely wrong and they certainly had good intentions, but I think the rise of Palpatine had just as much to do with their failings as the machinations of the Sith.

 

I like the 2nd version better just because it seems easier to understand

And the Sith code is actually worded a little differently in KOTOR. It is:
Peace is a lie. There is only passion
Through passion, I gain strength
Through strength, I gain power
Through power, I gain victory
Through victory, my chains are broken
The Force shall free me.

 

I agree, humans are not supposed to live without emotion, and I don't think Jedi in the PT were portrayed at all as emotionless.
That's another part of why I love the 'only sith deal in absolutes,' because it means to me, that no Jedi is without emotion, ignorance, passion, or chaos. They seek to bring themselves in alignment with the Force, but it seems they seek the golden mean as well.

As for the Sith code, it rather fits their philosophy I guess. I've always seen them as Nietzschians who have realized his concept of the supermen, that is they are individuals set apart from the rest of society by greatness, and as such society's rules do not apply to them in their pursuit of greatness. Their greatness is, of course, evident in that the galaxy has granted them Force powers.

The Jedi code is about becoming one with the Force.
The Sith code is about utilizing the Force as a tool.

At least that's my take.

 

Another thing about the Sith is that it is their passion that fuels the Force.

And they consider other things to be worse than love.

Also victory is not always desirable.

 

Wow, this is a very interesting topic. Thanks for putting it here, jacen200015!

EDIT: Disclaimer. This doesn't mean that I think the Jedi were a perfect organization and their ideas were all A-OK. What I forgot to stick in here somewhere is that I think real love has the power to redeem too... like Luke saved his Daddy. But maybe "only Sith deal in absolutes" meant that the Jedi thought there were exceptions to the code that proved the rule?? Huh. On to the post.

I, too, think that the Jedi Code is meant to promote sacrifice and purity, important qualities of some (but not all!) traditional heroes.

Tapping into the Force seems like a dangerous endeavor. We've seen in the movies a couple times, especially with Luke in ESB, that it can be touch-and-go as to whether you're using the Force in a pure way or being guided by your negative emotions. The Jedi (the PT Jedi, anyway, I am EU illiterate) are so strict because they know they are walking on a knife's edge, one wrong step and there they are on the dark side.

That is why the Jedi feel they have to give up things like romantic love or personal possessions: in order to protect their souls. Even in the most trusting relationship, there's an element of fear, because we are mortal - death is waiting to claim our loved ones, and it's scary. Also, how many people do we know who work jobs they hate because they fear to be poor and lose their treasures? And we all know what fear leads to... Putting aside our own attachments to favorite characters, I think this makes conceptual sense. Human whims plus incredible power equals NOT GOOD. Just imagine a Jedi getting a crush on someone and mind-tricking them into marraige Yikes!

So yeah, it is tough to be a Jedi, dealing with all those temptations, having to repress desires and urges that the rest of us not Force users can happily give in to. But that is the burden they have to bear, I think. Power has a price.

Plus there are dramatic reasons for the whole deal. It does make the characters interesting in that their lives are so different from ours. I mean, our society is hugely oriented to romance, instant-gratification consumer lifestyles, etc. It's a challenge to actually write a platonic friendship for once. And of course... Massive Romantic Angst and Unresolved Sexual Tension anyone??

 

Oh, I'm so glad you posted that! I never saw that before. I love the fact that it apparently changed over time... like it was retranslated in a more absolute way - which is not necessarily the right way and obviously not the way it was first intended. facinating.

RE: the Sith code. In my research I learned that the ancient Sith were actually a primitive force sensitive people who were enslaved by Dark Force users. The Dark Force users even bred with the Sith race to make themselves stronger in the force. In time the two were sort of combined and that is the birthplace of the Sith Order.

From the wikipedia website:

Sith
Long extinct, the Sith was the native species of the planet Korriban. They had red skin and tentacle 'beards', and had a natural talent for mastering the Force. Some time after the Great Schism several refugee Dark Jedi settled on the planet. Amazing the Sith with their mastery of the Force, the fallen Jedi soon elevated themselves to god-like status, becoming the rulers of the Sith. As the centuries passed, interbreeding occurred between the human Dark Jedi and the Sith, creating a half-species with an enormous talent for manipulating the Force. This species, which were also called Sith, had red skin like the original Sith. A prominent member of this half-species was the Sith Lord Marka Ragnos. The half-Sith species is also considered extinct.

The name 'Sith' was adopted by their Dark Jedi rulers, and has later been used by numerous fallen Jedi organizations.

so the code posted above for the Sith was likely taken from the early Sith people who were enslaved. Which makes a heck of a lot of sense given the last line.

sg

 

Interesting take, spiritgurl. I never thought to link the Sith Code to the ancient Sith.

But I always thought it was the Massassai race that had the red skin and tentacled-faces. I thought the old Sith were insectoid. I could be way off, though. And that's probably a topic for another thread.

Perhaps the problem with the Jedi Code is that it speaks in absolutes but it can't be understood in absolutes. On the whole, the Jedi are emotionless, peaceful, serene, harmonic, knowledgeable folks. But I'd think any Jedi would tell you that there's an exception to every rule, especially with the Jedi Code. So perhaps the Jedi beliefs aren't to blame, but their use of the Code to define themselves when it really doesn't.

 

Yeah Aerex, they probably tend to cling to their code too much, especially by the time of the PT when they seem to take it extremely literally. But it's a big scary galaxy out there, and like I mentioned, having the Force at your fingertips would be freaky as heck. Maybe it was even changed to provide a kind of comfort in absolutes - people mentioned earlier that the newer code is easier to understand, or sounds like something you would tell a child.

As for the Sith Code, I don't have any idea what to make of it. And their history is freaky, freaky stuff.

 

You don't know what exactly happened to cause the Sith Order, there are too many conflicting reports of what happened, and ironic it's by the people that said the Sith were their enemies. The Jedi, why would they want to know where they came from, they knew, that if they went their they would be defeated, so why do they make account of it? Plus there's reasonable evidence through Atris and here actions, Vrook and how he isn't merciful, and how Kreia fell. What I'm saying is, that the Sith probably always existed, in the Jedi Order, the knowledge they had, but they didn't need it.

 

Ooh, I like that explanation of the weird-derriere story about the Sith's beginnings. Made up by people who were scared stiff of them... of course!

D_Q(hey... DQ... ice cream, hmm), you seem to know quite a bit about the Sith - what's your take on their code?

 

Okay let me work backwards on these...

There is no emotion. There is peace in the Force.
There is no ignorance. There is knowledge in the Force.
There is no passion. There is serenity in the Force.
There is no chaos. There is harmony in the Force.
There is no death. There is the Force.


This one irritates me immediately upon reading. All the 'in the Force' makes it feel totally
exclusive to the Jedi or those with high midi-chlorians. While I know this is the 'Jedi Code' it somehow feels to talk down to anyone not of them, which I would find just wrong on their part.


There is no emotion, There is peace.
There is no ignorance, There is knowledge.
There is no passion, There is serenity.
There is no chaos, There is harmony.
There is no death, There is the Force.

This is the one I'm most familiar with and have had issues with for years. The 'There is no' of each line seems as if to deny they they exist. And just ignoring them does not make them go away.

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

Never saw this one before, but I like it. It not only acknowldge the existance of not so good things but states one can go beyond it and find balance. It reads as far more well rounded than the other versions of the Code which were a train of thought that I always felt contributed to the satgnation and ultimate demise of the Jedi Order.

 

You have to understand, that over time the ideals of the Sith changed from being all out marauders with no stealth to more refined, with different teachings for each Sith Lord there was. The code may have never changed, but how many times have they referred to it during the Empire?

 

I like the first one the best. The idea that all of those things can be felt and yet we gain something from them rather than losing something of oursleves because of them (as Anakin did) is a good idea. It seems a much more balanced look at the Force, and at life in general.