Do you still ever wonder how Count Dooku's turn to the dark side came about??

I do not know about you, but still to this day I keep wondering how Count Dooku's turn to the dark side really came about. Yes, the story is about Anakin and his turn to the dark side. But here was a major character in the prequels who also turned to the dark side.

Count Dooku was much more in terms of character and a villian than that of Maul, Jango and Grievous. The background information on these three put together pales in comparison to what we learned of Count Dooku.

Dooku was once a Jedi, a by all account a Jedi Master prior to his departure from the order. he was a master swordsman with the saber, and he was once the padawan learner of Yoda and he trained Qui-Gon. Then this elder Jedi suddenly leaves the Jedi order after all his years of service, then turns to the dark side and becomes a Sith Lord who leads the Separatists.

I am still very intrigued about his turn to the dark side, especially now when you look at Anakin's turn. We know Anakin's decision to turn to the dark side revolved around trying to obtain power through the dark side to save Padme. So what was the key for Count Dooku, especially given his age and time in the Jedi order.

I think in many ways, to learn why Dooku turned to the dark side is even more intriguing given his age, stature and years in the Jedi order.

Again, are there any of you who really would like to know the details of Dooku's turn to the dark side?

Darth Sin!

 

Actually, there's plenty to figure out what happened. He disagreed with the Senate. He was strong with the Force. Curious about learning all their was about the Force, including the forbidden arts of the Sith. He had trouble agreeing with the Council and how they handle things. He knew there was corruption in the Senate. The return of the Sith and the death of Qui-gon, was the final straw. He and Sidious met and that was all it took. Sidious made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Power and the ability to affect change.

 

I've always been intrigued by Dooku's character. I don't want to give away any spoilers, but check out Labyrinth of Evil. It goes a little more in depth on what sinister is saying.

 

you know, i actually had stopped wondering how he turned until i noticed this topic

 

While we have a sketchy outline of why Dooku turned to the Dark Side, we still lack a novel that would show Dooku's turn. In fact, we should have a trilogy. For Part 1, I'd like to see Dooku's relationship with Yoda and Mace (maybe even Yoda's beating Mace and Dooku in a Jedi tournament, with Dooku's beating Mace), his relationship with Qui-Gon, and his and Qui-Gon's disenchantment with the Senate and the Republic. We could also have scenes of Dooku's and QG's unique understanding of the Living Force as well as their independent streaks, and their being denied membership on the Council due to their strong, conscientious characters. Dooku could give his thoughts on Jedi and Sith histories, while he and QG could also talk about the rise of the Dark Side and the prophecy, of using Sith holocrons to understanding history and the dark side. Maybe even speculate the Sith were never extinct. Perhaps this entry in the Saga could end with Dooku's wiping out the Mandalorians.

In Part 2, we get events overlapping with TPM. Act 1 could be immediately prior, Act 2 Dooku's take of the events in TPM, and Act 3 his seduction by Sids. I imagine Dooku wanted to fight fire with fire. He felt he could study the dark side to defeat Sids, and only later converted bc of the power he attained. Some speculated he was never a true Sith, or that as late as AOTC he was ambivalent. In Act 3 of Part 2 and perhaps Act 1 of Part 3, this may be true.

Part 3 could be the 10 years leading up to AOTC: Sids' Sith training of Tyrannus, eventually letting go of his former identity, his coming to believe the Sith understanding of the Dark Side as being the best ideology, the preparation of the Clone Army and Droid Army, plans for the Death Star, and plans for the Separatist secession.

And as a small, but important backdrop in Acts 1 and 2, Sids and Maul (maybe even Sids and Plagueis if we go back a bit in Act 1--or last Sids thoughts on Plagueis, Maul and his own place in Sith history), and an assuming senator from Naboo. In fact, just as we had 1 scene of Anakin and Palps in TPM and the same in AOTC, it would be nice to see Dooku and Palps in Acts 1 and 2 lament the corruption of the Republic and of the Senate in particular, their disdain for the Corporate Alliance, Trade Federation, et al, and of their concern for the Jedi's being compromised. Come to think of it, we'd need to see Master Sifo-Dyas on the Jedi Council.

 

I think in many ways, to learn why Dooku turned to the dark side is even more intriguing given his age, stature and years in the Jedi order.


Since you mention Dookus age, maybe Palps laid the story of the tragedy of Darth Plagueis "the wise" on him.

 

It will never happen, but a Book or two about Dooku would be excellent. Dark Rendezvous, Labyrinth of Evil, and the RoTS novel got into Dooku's head and past a little bit and left enough information to make one curious about his entire story. On top of Dooku, who WOULDN'T want to read about Master Dooku and Padawan Qui-Gon adventuring around the galaxy. Are their philosophies similar? Could they have been uncovering corruption in the Senate years ago? Could Dooku have grown to believe in Qui-Gon so much that his "I wish Qui-Gon was here." statement in AoTC was the honest to god truth and not simply an attempt to twist Obi-Wan? He could be having that same thought as he headed out to kill Sifo-Dyas and become the Sith apprentice. Perhaps make it appear that if Qui-Gon hadn't died Dooku would have had a close enough friend and ally to steer him straight. Either way, even a pair of Books (Qui-Gon Era and Sith Lord Era) Dooku would be well recieved, I think.

Carnage

 

I've always wanted to know more about Dooku's fall to the Dark Side....I understand that he was disenfranchised with the system, the role of the Jedi, the corruption in the Republic, etc. But that's hardly a stone's throw away from becoming a Sith Lord. I'd love to know how Dooku's displeasure with the Republic got twisted from the desire to improve the Republic to throwing in with Sidious, and what really served to push him over the edge.

 

Heh, that could very well be...Dooku could be tempted by that.

 

This is a pretty nice overview of what happened in my mind. Dooku left the Order because he disagreed with decisions that were being made within it and because he saw a corrupt Senate that could no longer function. After Qui-Gon died he had had enough and became one of the Lost Twenty [twenty-one if you count Anakin]. Sidious played on his anger and turned him to the dark side.

 

Well with these thoughts in mind, this is a great part of what I have always wondered when thinking of how Sidious convinced this elder Jedi Master to turn to the Sith. As far as Palps playing on Dooku's anger, this is very intriguing to me because when seeing Dooku in the films, I never sensed a man filled with true Sith anger. All the other Sith we have seen, you could see and hear their anger. But for Dooku this just did not seem to be the case.

Also, I have always wondered about Dooku and Palps relationship prior to him becoming a Sith. I have wondered if their relationship mirrored that of Anakin and Palps, and how did Palpatine reveal to Dooku that he was a Sith. Obviously they had to have a friendship prior to becoming Master and Apprentice. This is something I am very much interested in knowing about these two.

Lastly, if Qui-Gon's death was the final straw for Dooku that caused him to become intensely angry, I would have much liked to have seen Dooku going to visit Palpatine to express his feelings about the death of his friend, and to see and hear Palps pull his master manipulation game on Dooku, and then it is at this time he reveals to him that he is actually a Sith, and known as Darth Sidious.

Again, trying to imagine Palpatine seducing this elder Jedi to give into the dark side and become his Sith apprentice is something I very much would like to have seen or at least read about. Edit: In my mind, it is not very difficult for me to believe it was so easy for Palpatine to manipulate and seduce a young man like Anakin, but a little harder to accept when it came to someone like Dooku who one would expect to be older and wiser, and not easily deceived.



Darth Sin!

 

Darth Sin,

This topic has been a obsession with me as well. I believe I read a quote in one of the Star Wars Insider magazine that Dooku's story and fall to the dark side will be explained in a novel. It was in the ask Pablo section. It was either the last edition or the one prior. I feel like it's a very cool story that's left untold.

We know that from LoE that he kills Sifo-Dyas. I'd like to hear if this was simply betryal or a duel to the death for Sith Apprentance. Those type of things would be awesome if ever answered.

JediLight

 

What was the name of the Jedi Dooku betrayed? I still have to read Labrynth.
I always figured Dooku's turn was kind of like Anakin's with that Jedi he was friends with in Mace's place. That was going on no official information though.
Am i correct in understanding Dooku's actual turn was not detailed in Labrynth?

 

Again does it equate to the overall story? I think it does. I think there are bits in the PT that could of been explained a little more. We are given an idea for Dooku's turn but nothing concrete. Dooku, a bit like Gui-Gon is a bit of a rebel and didn't always see eye to eye with the council it seems.

Watching the ROTS webdocs again yesterday it reminds me that Lucas referred to the Darkside as the Emperor and the Apprentices are just his sidekicks . I do think that notion by Lucas lets us not get a little more character development. Maul,Jango,Boba,Dooku,Grievous. I think the fans of these characters feel a bit let down at times, either because of their smaller parts or their inadequate deaths. Sure we can say their mysterious without this development but is that just an excuse? Do we have time for these characters to be developed?

 

Darth Sin -- Long time no see. It?s good to see that you have revived this question! I remember some great discussions we had about it years ago. You?ve actually lured me out of the shadows to make a comment! Dooku had a TON of potential to be a truly compelling and intriguing character in the saga. Why would a master and one who had been in the Order for decades abandon his teachings and completely betray his Jedi brethren? Over a political disagreement? That hardly seems like enough.

You may recall where I stand on this. Dooku without question should have been in the Phantom menace. He should have been established as a good, moral Jedi Master. He should have had a relationship with Qui Gon that we had seen and witnessed. And maybe he had some misgivings or ideas that gave a little inkling of his potential turn but that would be it. And then it would have been much more dramatic, compelling and even surprising (if he donned a mask..lol) once we see that he has become a Sith in AOTC. And of course setting it up that way would make it mandatory for it to be explained ON SCREEN why he left the Order and joined the Sith. These things would give him such depth and would have made him much more entertaining overall.

Instead he is introduced in a very bizarre way in AOTC. Padme accuses him of attempting to assassinate her. And the Jedi completely disagree! And we are not given one shred of information as to why Padme would possibly think that at that point. Left alone, it makes zero sense. Dooku was the head of the CIS and amassing a droid army. Even if we assume he wants to ?take over? as opposed to seceding, keeping Padme ALIVE works to his advantage. Padme was against the Military Creation Act for the Republic so her political stance keeps the Republic weak making it easier for Dooku and the CIS to dominate. But whatever, the Jedi just go on about him actually being a good guy, even though he was the only Jedi in 20,000 years to leave. Lol.

And after that he just a empty shell of a character. We don?t even get to see him until we are about ¾ through the film. We know nothing of his motivesor what he is really about. He spouts some meaningless lines and is pretty boring overall as a villain (was there even a villain in AOTC??). And predictably, he meets a quick and early death in ROTS making him completely disposable.

 

Dooku's history as told in the eu.

-Jango Fett: Open Seasons. Dooku appears as one of the Jedi sent to take down a group of Mandalorians who had gone too far. Dooku and Jango meet for the first time. This is also what causes Dooku to start to question the Jedi Order's values.

-Legacy Of The Jedi. This book is a special edition of both Jedi Apprentice and Jedi Quest. The story starts with Dooku as a Youngling with a fellow Youngling, as they both start to get curious about the Sith Holocrons in the Temple. The story jumps ahead to when Dooku was teaching Qui-gon. Then to Obi-wan and Qui-gon on a solo adventure, which ties into the first two time periods. Then we end with Anakin and Obi-wan confronting the fallen Jedi and Dooku.

-Jango Fett: Bounty Hunter. We learn that Dooku's Padawan Konima Vasa (sp) fell to the Dark Side. Dooku has Jango and Montross go out to bring her in. The one standing will be the template for the Clone Army.

-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. This shows us the close nature of Yoda and Dooku, when they were younger. Ties into LOTJ.

The circumstances of when Dooku met Sidious are unknown at present and it remains to be seen if Del Rey will cover it. Since they are focusing on Legacy Of The Force, Coruscant Nights, Path To Destruction and Death Star. What is known is that Dooku met Palpatine on Naboo, when Qui-gon was still Dooku's Padawan. A couple decades before TPM. But how they came in contact again isn't entirely clear. LOE just says that he found out during an encounter and it went from there. Dark Horse is focusing on Legacy, Rebellion, Knights Of The Old Republic and the occassional special.

 

Dooku's conversion according to the Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology by Daniel Wallace, Kevin Anderson

One of Dooku's close friends, within the Order, Master Sifo-Dyas, perceived the events surrounding the reappearance of the Sith and believed athat the Republic could not survive without additional defenders. Without the knowledg of his Jedi colleagues, Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a massive clone army with the geneticists of Kamino. Darth Sidious learned of the plan and moved to secure the army for his own purposes. As a final test of loyalty for his would-be-apprentice, he ordered Dooku to kill Sifo-Dyas.

After the clandestine murder, Dooku erased all traces of Kamino from the Jedi archives and announced that his intention to leave the Order. Now a true Sith Lord, Dooku took the secret name of Darth Tyranus. He returned to his native Serenno, taking up the title and holdings due to him ast the planet's hereditary Count, then dissappeared from public view. Dooku became the newest Jedi Master to leave the Order, making the Lost Nineteen into the Lost Twenty.

 

Well that explanation is not cannon. I only go by the films.

And even in EU, I'm not that crazy about that explanation. Where does Sif0-Dyas get the money from to order million of clone troopers?? And why would he not tell any Jedi about this premonition and ordering of clones but Dooku?

But as far as the films are concerned, nothing is explained.

 

Sifo-Dyas never paid for the Clone Army. Dooku and Sidious made secret payments to Kamino for the army. I assume the money came from the sepratist council? The one thing I hate about EU is how Dooku was interested in the Dark side when he was younger. To me Dooku was similar to Anakin, he would have rather stayed a Jedi and use the light side of the force then go to the dark side. The whole reason he became a sith was because he wanted to bring about change and didnt believe the Jedi could do that.

 

That explanation by many that Dooku went to the dark side because he felt taking this path could bring about the change he thought was needed just does not make any real sense to me.

What real change did he think the dark side powers were going to make? It was not so much the dark side that would bring change, but rather that in joining Sidious as a Sith and his plans that he thought would bring about the necessary changes needed for the Republic.

I guess we are to believe that Dooku also believed that a dictatorship-style government was needed to bring change to the Republic.

I really hate that there is not enough information on Dooku and why this elder Jedi Master would choose the path he chose in becoming a Sith. The things we are given are just not enough in my opinion to justify why he becomes a Sith. And anyway, by becoming the leader of the Separatists, did he really think he was going to have a place in the new government of the Empire after the war, especially the way Palpatine deceived everyone to get his position. What was it goign to look like if Dooku had a position as Palpatine's right-hand man?

Dooku was a most interesting character that as many have said should have started in TPM and been seen as a Jedi before going evil, and how his relationship with Palpatine started. I am most interested as to how and when Palpatine revealed to Dooku that he was a Sith Master known as Darth Sidious. I wonder how that transpired??

Darth Sin!

 

Actually, all that stuff is based on Dooku's character as Lucas created him. The Sith were always behind the creation of the Clone Army. They just used Sifo-Dyas as a scape goat, to throw the Jedi off when they investigated things after Geonosis. The Council and Yoda in particular concluded that Sifo-Dyas had gone to a man named Tyranus, who helped him to finance the Clone Army. Obi-wan only learns that Tyranus is Dooku, when he confronts Grievous as told in the novelization.

Lucas has said that when you look at both Dooku and Anakin, they both say much of the same things. Both wanted power. Both wanted to effect change. Both believed in dictatorship over democracy. As Christopher Lee said of Dooku, he willingly joined the dark side. Anakin, on the other hand, had to be tricked into thinking it was his only option.

 

This is what I believe happened:

Events just before/during TPM.

Dooku was already displeased with the way the Jedi Council and the Republic Senate functioned. He only remained for his friend Sifo-Dyas, and his first Padawan, Qui-gon Jinn. After Qui-gon's death, Sifo-Dyas couldn't convince Dooku to stay with the Jedi.

Dooku returned to Syrenno, his homeworld, where he inherited his fortune and took the name Count. He became a politician on Syrenno, and was then approached by Darth Sidious. Sidious offered Dooku a chance to create and shape his own Galactic Government as he saw fit. He also offered him knowledge of the Dark Side.

Dooku, ever eager to become more knowledgable, took Sidious up on his offer. He was taught the ways of the Sith, and ultimately was given the choice of following either the Dark Path or the Light Path. As opposed to being taken and forced to learned the way of the Jedi as a child, Dooku took advantage of his freedom to choose, and chose the Dark Side.

Dooku's final test, aside from a duel with Darth Sidious, was to kill his old friend Sifo-Dyas, thereby breaking off his last connections to the Jedi Order. Dooku did so, and was pronounced a Dark Lord of the Sith. Already able to fight with a lightsaber and use the Force, Dooku had little trouble tapping into his anger and using Dark powers. He continued his training while setting up the Confederacy of Independant Systems.

While recruiting organizations like the Trade Federation, the Commerce Guild, the Corporate Alliance, the IG Banking Clan, the Geonosians, and the Techno Union, Dooku also helped Sidious to finish creating the clone army that Master Sifo-Dyas had secretly set up not long before. Now knowing Sidious' true identity as Palpatine, Dooku made sure to recruit any and all military organizations from the Republic to ensure Palpatine's new clone army would be under his complete control.

It took a long time for the organizations and several hundred systems to sign on to the CIS, or Separatists, and it wasn't until ten years after Dooku left he Jedi Order, that his organization became a threat to the Republic. Of course, much of what the Separatists were up to was discovered by Obi-wan Kenobi, after he tracked down the two bounty hunters Dooku had hired to kill Senator Padme Amidala, a method of persuasion to recruit Nute Gunray's Trade Federation.

That's where AOTC picks up.

 

Sidious and Tyranus were both in on the plan to take over the Republic, they never intended for the Confederacy to win. In fact, even the Separatist Council members knew that they weren't supposed to win. All that was supposed to be done was use this to demonstrate the power of the Clone Army, eliminate as many Jedi as possible and allow Palpatine to have all kinds of power. So that he can freely declare a unification between the Republic and the Separatists into an Empire. Dooku just didn't realize that he was being used only as a scape goat for the Clone Wars and that he would be replaced by Anakin. Dooku had actually thought that Anakin would join them, which is why he agreed to kidnap Palpatine. But then he got to see the truth too late.

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to set-up a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

That's why Dooku looks over at him in shock, because he didn't think he would do that. And Dooku doesn't beg, because he's too proud. That was Lee's feeling on the situation.

 

I remember reading somewhere that Dooku had always been intrigued by the Sith, and had some traits that other Jedi noticed were a bit "off." As many have said before, he saw the corruption in the Senate and meeting up with Sidious was (I believe) after he had decided to leave the Order.

Don't quote me on this. I'm not 100% sure.

 

This is a good thread; it makes me a bit sad that there wasn't more of Dooku in the PT.