PT Does anyone feel TPM is much more "grand" than Clones and Sith?

I have loved Phantom Menace ever since I saw it in theaters back in 1999. I know it has flaws, but to me there is something majestic, finely crafted, elegant and grand to it. I can't explain it. There is a certain sense of wonder and scope that the original films have; Out of all the movies I feel TPM is the most "space fantasy", it truly feels like I am in a galaxy far, far away. Not only is there this sense of scope, but

It is a wild ride, it introduces amazing worlds, creates really in depth world building, just is a beautiful thing to watch in some weird way. Not only is there this sense of scope, but even in terms of the actual LOOK of the movie - it's gorgeous. There are so many classic places and set pieces here, the fight with Maul, the underwater sequence, the Gungan city in general is beautiful, there's so much blending of both fantastic and ancient real life aesthetics on display from Amidala's wardrobes being inspired by 19th century Asian royalty, to the Italian look of Naboo, to the more rough hewn edges of Mos Espa. It is a world steeped both in the fantastic and the distant past. It is as charming and grand as say an early 20th century ocean liner, as graceful as the grand staircase of the Titanic.

So what I am getting to?

Phantom feels like a finely crafted film that has a TON of heart, love and passion put into it, flaws aside. George spent literally 3 years not only designing the look of the film, but also hammering out at least 3 or 4 different versions of the script.

I do not agree with all of his choices (I feel Lloyd was sadly miscast and Anakin could've or should've been older and more rough hewn), but nonetheless, it feels like everything in the film was deliberate, finely researched, gone over with a fine tooth comb. It was a film made from George Lucas' heart - the film he wanted to see on the screen. It is derivative in that it is inspired by the films which he loved growing up, but it is also wholly unique and not necessarily inspired by anything contemporary to 1994 or 1997 or 1999.

With each successive film, I feel like we got a more condescended version of the above. There are some great world building moments in Clones, like Kamino, Geonosis, and the night life of Coruscant, or Dex's diner, yet it feels like Lucas took his wider vision and distilled it to try to make a film more pleasing to the fans who complained; he made a safer film. It's a less ponderous and philosophical film than Phantom, as well. Not only that, but despite probably having a bigger budget, Clones, IMO, due to George experimenting with then brand new digital technology, doesn't look half as beautiful as Phantom does. There is a soulless, washed out quality to the film's look compared to the lush beauty (even on Mos Espa) of Phantom. The digital technology wasn't there yet and the picture feels very flat.

Where you can tell that George REALLY sat down and pondered over Phantom quite a lot, Clones somehow feels rushed. And it really feels like he went all out to please fans in some ways IE "Let's throw Boba Fett in there! The fans love him!"

Clones just feels like...honestly, out of all the series, the most rushed, soulless product, the only film George was involved in that I can say that of.

Sith has a much more vibrant and realistic look to it, it is a masterpiece albeit in a much, much different way from Phantom. At this point the world has contracted, and perhaps that's a thematic issue but nonetheless - I don't feel any wonder in the home planet of the Wookies like I did in Endor or Cloud City. The most majestic scenes are also the darkest. Yet Amidala, who started out the series as a strong character, who was a warrior in Clones, becomes robbed of any agency in Sith. Anakin's fall was apparently cut from having several different and complex motivations to only one, and I feel that was an absolute mistake, which lessened his character.

Obi Wan as a Jedi Master, I understand they are different men, but he is not nearly as plainly charismatic or as engaging as Qui Gon was. Qui Gon has a mystique to him, whereas Obi Wan is more, well, "Hello there!", cheeky.

I just feel like because of fan outcry, Lucas took his vision of the SW universe, radically condensed it into something simpler and more pleasing to the masses, and in the process, we lost quite a bit of the grand and beautiful, strange film that Phantom was.

Does anyone else agree, and would anyone like to add their views? I'd love to discuss this.

 

Frist of all, I have to disagree vehemently with the notion that AOTC is "soulless". I can see where you are coming from, though. I do think that TPM is probably the most "George Lucas film" of the PT in terms of the themes he liked to explore his whole life. THX 1138, American Graffiti, ANH and TPM are all incredibly similar in their core while still being vastly different in their presentation.

With TPM, Lucas had the unique opportunity to make a movie that kind of lives its own life, being relatively detached from the OT and he had the technology to put his full vision on screen for the first time. AOTC and ROTS were a lot more limited and had to develop the story in a way to match the OT and lead seamlessly into ANH.

What is unique about TPM in some way is that it really feels like both a futuristic and a historical film, which is probably a result of the multiple cultural inspirations they took for the creation of worlds and characters. Naboo works wonders in that regard. In that sense, both AOTC and ROTS do feel a bit more "technocratic" and less historically abundant. It's also probably visible that they factually had more time for TPM.

That said, I simply disagree with the idea that any of the Prequels are soulless. AOTC was pushing technology hard while still telling an engaging story of a crippling democracy and what AOTC gets better than any of the other movies (inclunging OT) and never gets the right amount of appreciation for: Each of the main characters does go through development, they all get their due attention and our perspective of them changes to some degree. When duality is of TPM's main themes, taking and accepting duties and carrying the burden of all that is one of AOTC's main issues and it shines through each main character. There was heart and thought put into that film.

ROTS is certainly the one that feels a bit more limited in the depth of the worlds it establishes, but I think that's largely a part of it being very fast-paced (we kind of fly through the galaxy at maximum speed) and focused on Anakin. Just as you said, there are different qualities about each film. If there is one thing I miss about ROTS it is some degree of location shooting and I would agree with you that Kashyyk would have benefitted from some real world footage that would have to be digitally expanded. It doesn't diminish my enjoyment, though.

In conclusion, I'd say I agree with you to some extent in a sense that Lucas was more in his comfort zone with TPM, dealing with ideas that are most important to him, and the movie has a unique production quality due to the five-year-work, but I wholeheartly disagree that there is anything soulless about any of the three and I think the majority of change was due to the way the story and technology was just going.

 

I'll certainly grant TPM stands out as a unique and vibrant fantasy adventure that is gorgeous in its construction. What I can't do, however, is praise that film as a means of disparaging Episodes II and III. Far from being soulless, I find AOTC to be the emotional core of the entire film series. It's by necessity a much more "adult" and contemplative film than TPM (or what I consider the SW norm even outside the prequels for that matter). For me its landscapes (inner and outer) as they cycle from labyrinthine normalcy to dreamlike idyll to horrible war make for Star Wars in its most compelling mode. Likewise with Sith. These are heavy, complex films that still maintain the classic sense of Star Wars adventure where appropriate. And I don't doubt Lucas still poured his "heart and soul" into their visual creation--in fact I'd wager in many respects these films freed him despite the story constraints to tie in more directly with IV-VI.

Pretty much I see TPM as Spirited Away while Clones/Sith are more like Ghost in the Shell. Both approaches are wonderful. But if I have to pick give me the mood, depth, and visual atmosphere of the latter set.

 

grand.... i don't know about that. I do think it is the most beautiful Star Wars film. Best ships, costumes, locales. Everything is amazing to look at.

 

There was actually some location shooting done for Kashyyyk, the background mountains are actually shots from Thailand composited with the practical miniature wroshyr trees and (I think) CG beach.

 

Can't say more than what @Samnz and @ezekiel22x have said. 100% agreed.

AOTC is anything but "safe", and it's certainly more "philosophical" than TPM.

TPM is certainly more "lush" and beautiful -and it's meant to be. But both Naboo and Tatooine look far from "washed out" in AOTC: they look equally vibrant and colorful. And there are five different planets, all different, and wonderfully explored over the film. In that sense, it's certainly a bigger film than TPM.

And Anakin's fall is not the result of a single motivation at all.

 

TPM encapsulates what I liked about some of the old EU stories I read as a kid. It wasn't particularly tied down by a previous story, even though it had to do the work of setting everything up, and there's not a pressing need to see what happens next (even though the option is there, now anyway).

It's sort've like the Final Fantasy games whenever they hit next gen consoles and Sakaguchi tried to maintain they were all isolated stories and not continuations of a particular story. Big on communicating its concepts (typically through tech leaps), while its overarching narrative gets lost in the "look up and awe" affect of the world's newness.

 

Yeah, I think TPM worked for me because it felt like this fun little self-contained adventure. By contrast, with AOTC and ROTS I had these built-up expectations for the fall of the Republic and how it should link up to the OT...and it didn't really meet my expectations.

 

as I've said elsewhere i think TPM has a classic style m. like Ben Hur.. AOTC is a Saturday matinee b movie and sith is like weird goth3 Shakespeare

 

I feel AOTC is considerably grander than TPM. I don't think the SW universe had ever felt that grand.

 

I think a lot of what you're feeling is a combination of a) the general design of Naboo, b) the emphasis on royalty and decorum in the actual plot of the movie, and c) the more restrained, stately way that it's shot in comparison to its two digital sequels. Phantom Menace seems to be quoting a lot more from those wonderful widescreen epics of the middle of the century, like Ben-Hur and Cleopatra and the like, than the rest of the series. I dig it, too -- it's the only Star Wars movie that makes the Republic seem like something that was a shame to lose.

Attack of the Clones isn't remotely soulless, though it feels markedly different from the rest because the soul of its main character (and the Republic) are in much more overt turmoil than they are in the others. There is a bit of a digital sheen on it, too, I guess, but I think the palette of the movie was gonna come out murky and noirish no matter what. It is, after all, a story of a moody teenager + a detective investigation + political corruption. Not grand, no, because none of things are. But very much in tune with the confusing, dangerous territory that the storyline covers.

Sith is basically an opera. Bold splashes of color, intense focus on the pure passion and emotional journey of the characters. I don't think of the settings much, either, except for Mustafar, but that's because the landscapes of the characters are the most dramatic ones in that episode. And, I mean, what an accomplishment.

Basically, they're all different. And the differences, for me, are the draw here. I don't need three movies like any of the Prequels as much as I needed these three movies in concert with each other.

 

No, not quite. I've always had a feeling that I was experiencing an epic while watching "Attack of the Clones" or "The Empire Strikes Back".

 

I don't know about "grandness"; maybe being the first film where it all started may have something to do with that. But I do think of the PT films, TPM feels the most like an adventure. I don't know about the actual screentime, but TPM feels like the one where the main characters are all together the longest, whereas the other two feel more like connecting stories about the characters that comes together more toward the end.

 

I disagree big time. While I dislike TPM less than AOTC, I really do feel like Lucas seemed more interested as the prequel trilogy went on. The third act of AOTC just felt like Star Wars. By the time Lucas gets to ROTS there's such a propulsive confidence in the narrative that I have to believe Episode 3 was the story he really wanted to tell.

However that's my opinion and more power to you. I do like a lot of the designs and visuals in TPM so I kind of get what you're saying.

 

I feel just the opposite. To me AOTC is the most "experimental" or even daring film in the entire saga. While I like TPM, AOTC and ROTS are way more epic, had the better world building and were much more emotional. TPM to me just sets the stage for the real drama of the prequels. Not a bad film, but nowhere close to the other prequels.

 

I agree with OP.

TPM has more (I can't think of a better word than) 'provenance'.

AotC has soulless voids and a disappointing new millennium influence/aspect, which reflects little of the original inspiration of SW (all the films are great, of course).

 

I've said this before, but TPM has a larger-than-life, old-fashioned Technicolor spectacle to it that no other Star Wars film has. AOTC is purposefully more noir-esque and ROTS is operatic but gloomier. Even the poster for ROTS is mostly shades of red and black. And of course the OT was, according to Lucas, supposed to look "lived in" (not bright and shiny... like Star Trek... or whatever his reference was) or something like that. So in that sense, TPM is the grandest Star Wars.

Sense of scale-wise I'd say ROTS is grander, but TPM feels the most open, and the set pieces are brighter and more colorful.

Edit: and it looks like everything I just posted has already been posted.

 

Absolutely not. How can TPM be GRAND when Anakin commits GRAND Theft Auto in AOTC by taking someone's yellow speeder? Doesn't get any GRANDer.

 

TPM, despite everything, has some pretty gorgeous visuals, some great mise-en-scene, and combining practical props with CG implemented in the right way certainly gives it a look that's held up in some ways. It definitely has aged better than AOTC, which just looks washed-out now. ROTS is a step up from that and definitely has its moments, although it doesn't dwell on most of its locations the way TPM did, though overall it has a better sense of 'major things are happening'.

 

Out of the three prequels, The Phantom Menace feels most like Star Wars.

 

It does feel like a superb grand adventure.

I don't know if it's because it's the first film in the saga since the OT, therefore all these new planets and visuals are widening our understanding of the GFFA or what.

On just one world alone we get a glimpse at so much. The forestry and nature of Naboo. The underwater world of it. The inner city of Theed.

Then we journey across the galaxy to Tatooine and spend a lot of time there.

Then we head to Coruscant, the capital of the Galactic Republic.

A scene that holds a particular nostalgia for me is when they all arrive to Coruscant. The music and all.

"Coruscant. The entire planet is one big city."

And the look on then-Senator Palpatine's face as the royal Naboo ship comes in. It's not very friendly, but it's not menacing either.

Also I think this image is arguably one of the more beautiful in the saga. The grand majesty of Coruscant, the capital, in all it's beauty. A teacher and student talking philosophy just days before things will be changed forever in Theed. A Sith Lord is becoming the new Chancellor, and the sun is setting on the Republic.



Also the entire celebrating parade ending on Naboo is one of my favorite scenes in the saga as well.

I see the flaws of TPM more than I ever have now, and it's far from my favorite film of the saga. But I agree with others, it feels the most like the OT out of the entire Prequel Trilogy to me.

 

They were all "grand". TPM probably had the most polished visuals and the strongest sense of wonder, but ROTS has those massive emotional moments and the visual splendor of Mustafar, and AOTC has that huge third-act action climax along with the really beautiful scenes on Naboo and Tatooine. I think they all had a lot of passion put into them.

I think perhaps what you are seeing @Darth Arthurius, especially in the part of your post dealing with ROTS, is the way the decline of the Republic is represented visually. It's intentional that, as the trilogy goes on, we see the more extravagant and ornate look of the peacetime Republic gradually replaced with the darker, sleeker, more warlike aesthetic of the Empire.

 

TPM was grand in its accomplishments in terms of CGI and special effects. I had a great time that summer going to see it multiple times. Hadn't seen a new SW movie in a long time obviously.

It wasn't as good of a movie as the others in the PT though. I will always appreciate it as a classic era SW movie, but it missed the mark by going too kid friendly. That was actually the second movie in a row where Lucas made that mistake (Ewoks!).

Lucas would make up for it by going the other way in ROTS- no longer kid friendly, but child murder! Gunned down by clones on the platform! Chopped down by Anakin! No one can accuse that movie of being too kid friendly; kids are getting slaughtered left and right. A regular child death-fest.

 

I think all three were grand but there's just nothing like Williams' amazing soundtrack that builds the emotional moments in ROTS. Padme's Ruminations both visually and musically IMO is one of the very best in the entire saga.