Lit Does Palpatine really want Vader to surpass himself?

It's the essence of Darth Bane's Rule of Two, but did he really want to let Vader become stronger than himself and overthrow him?

 

In the old EU. Palps never had any intention of being overthrown, thus all the research into immortality and cloning and yada yada.

In the new EU, nobody knows.

 

Taking everything into account i'd say yes and no. Based on Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader he wanted Vader to want to him kill, wanted Vader to possess the drive to seek out that end, as it's necessary for the Rule of Two. He boasts to Yoda in Revenge of the Sith that Vader will "become more powerful than either of us!" Such an event, and Vader and Palpatine both being Sith, can only end in one logical outcome: Palpatine's death. So, he was aware on some level of just how powerful Anakin/Vader was and could become, and was aware that he could die, yet he still pushed the younger man down that path. Now, we could say that he did this with the intention of having his new Apprentice weakened down the line, and that Mustafar served that purpose, but subsequent materials contradict that idea, and show that he again actively pushed Vader towards getting over his emotional/psychological issues, so that he would again be capable of reaching his true potential. And notably, Palpatine believed that if Vader truly came to accept himself that he'd be able to achieve that potential, regardless of being mostly machine. So i'd say that he did want Vader to become stronger than him. However, the part where it gets iffy is the reasoning why.

I think we can definitely say them being Sith from Bane's Order played a part in it. Yet we know that at a certain point Palpatine got over the whole Rule of Two, Order of the Sith Lords thing and in fact viewed it to be obsolete, and therefore no longer necessary. This is exemplified in Dark Empire where he's now planning on ruling forever as an immortal Force-King. Now, I doubt Palpatine just started researching or thinking about expanding his life beyond the natural after ROTS. With his Master in fact having done so much research into the issue, and even having discovered/created a new way to do so, and then having taken that path with him into death, i'd say there's a good chance he was always studying the concept of eternal life, and had mastered Essence Transfer at the least long before Vader became his Apprentice. So I think the possibility then arises that even while he was pushing Vader on to grow stronger and kill him, that he already had a backup plan in place to counter that; and that he wouldn't really be "dying" even if Vader did kill him. I think it's generally believed that Sidious increased in strength after Return of the Jedi, perhaps due to further study, a natural increase in power, or due to having come so close to joining the Force itself. Now assuming he'd planned for any of these things, or at least just some kind of increase in his abilities, he could have also been thinking that Vader surpassing him would only be temporary; And honestly, a day, a year, a lifetime even, at the end of it all Palpatine viewed himself as immortal, so even if Vader was stronger for a time, as long as Darth Sidious was alive it would only be for a time.

 

that is not really the essence of rule of two as i see it, at least not only the essence. Rule of Two, you want the sith to be strong and never weaken, you want an apprentice that will try to get stronger and defeat you, but i think a master does not really want to be defeated. If he kills the apprentice he will find new one, i think that is favoarble than just sacrificing yourself willingly. If you do die in the attempt by your apprentice your ultimately happy because the dark side prevails, but you would rather stay strong i think.

 

I agree with this. I happen to be reading Rule of Two right now, and that's how I understand the concept. Bane says that the master embodies the power, and the apprentice craves it. When he leaves Zannah on Ruusan, he tells her that if she can't make her way to Dxun, she's not worthy of being his apprentice, and he'll find a new one.

 

He doesn't want post-suit Vader that's for sure.

 

I think that (before Mustafar happened) he assumed that Anakin would eventually grow more *powerful* than him, but that he planned on having him on a tight enough emotional leash that Anakin would never actually overthrow him. He planned on becoming immortal and staying the Sith Master forever. So, no.

 

Relevant lines:

Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced. Now that the galaxy was his to rule, there was nothing to prevent Sidious, too, from unlocking that mystery.​

Then he and his crippled apprentice might hold sway over the galaxy for ten thousand years, and live eternally.​

If they didn't kill each other first.​

In large part because Padme Amidala had died.​

​

The idea of a Sith order was a corruption of the intent of the ancient Dark Lords. Fortunately, Darth Bane had understood that, and had insisted that only in rare instances should there exist more than two lords, Master and apprentice, at any given time.​

But two were necessary for the perpetuation of the Sith order.​

And so it fell to Sidious to complete Vader's convalescence.​

​

Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.​

Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might gave attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.​

Even at Sidious's own peril...​

 

I look at this in a simple way: Does any Sith want to be overtaken?

 

I always liked to think that Sidious's line to Yoda about Vader succeeding him was just a taunt: Hey, even if you kill me, Vader's gonna carry on my vision. The notion that there was any sense of altruism or selflessness to the Emperor sort of undermines the nature of his character imo.

But that's just my personal preference.

 

You're asking though if Palpatine wanted Vader to do better. You realise this, right?

 

This is a good one because you listen to GL's take on the matter and it is one thing, then you go to the EU and its another, and then you go to the movies/script and its something else and then you go with what one sees and hears and thats another thing too. In terms of power, Im dissapointed because if Palpatine was all powerful he would have levitated up at the end of ROTJ when Vader threw him down. In TCW we've seen some awesome powers dispalyed like.......the ability to live after being cut down and falling down a shaft.

The only thing I will say that is neutral is that both Yoda and Palpatine knew that Anakin was very special, one was scared of what he could become the other wanted to exploit it and by the end of ROTJ, Anakin did what no one else could do. Be both a jedi and a sith and still perserve his identity and unite with the force. Thats how a far I could take it though

 

As long as he didn't know how to become immortal, Palpatine intended Vader to surpass him (to carry on the Sith-legacy). After Palpatine found a way Vader was living on borrowed time (the appearance of a potentially more powerful apprentice).

 

If you believe Dark Lord - he would have given Vader the secret of immortality as well - which would have meant both were living on borrowed time until one could kill the other (possibly by being the first to recruit a suitable apprentice).

 

Well, he certainly tells Yoda that Vader will become more powerful than both of them.

 

that was before Mustafar, by that point only Luke and Leia can reach that power level

 

By Darth Bane's Rule of Two the apprentice shall claim the mantle of Darkl Lord from his/her master. But Palpatine didn't claim the title in accordance to this. Therefore i don't think that he at any point wants Vader to surpass him. It is true that he says that Vader will become more powerfull than him, but i dont believe he want him to fulfill that potential. Also in ROTJ he wants Luke to replace Vader, not to replace himself.

 

If Vader didn't get chopped and char-broiled, i'd bet that he would want Vader to surpass him. Since he was stuck in the suit, then Palpatine had to make due, until a better option presented himself.

 

See how do you quantify power? Is it at the level of Thor, Superman, or Wonder Woman? Or Galactus, Thanos, or some other powerful diety that can do super uber things? Cause that is what power means to me, not the political, hide behind the chair and shoot some lightning kind of deal. That is not power, so the question is what is power and what do we define it as? The next thing is GL was so controversial with this that one never knows if Palpatine was suppose too or not suppose to let Anakin be twice as powerful and then we don't even know if Anakin really ever was. Yeah, I've got the Rolling Stones (2005) magazine as well as the Vanity Fair one (2005) that talks all about what Anakin was probably suppose to be and what he did not become and what Luke could be. In the end though, the EU (legends) surpassed all that jazz. I just don't know anymore. GL is gone and no longer part of star wars and most if not all of the old EU is now Legends and don't count so who knows now.

 

I think the biggest thing is in terms of mindset and mental capabilities. While Anakin's Force capability far surpasses the Emperor his mental capabilities are far inferior. If we look at it from that angle of each Sith Lord's drive, ambition, vision, motivation, and tactical skills we get another picture. Anakin if we look at it through that lens is not much better than Darth Maul and pales in comparison with Darth Tyrannus.

Anakin became Vader to save Padme and seems to be his only motivation. For a Sith Lord the whole purpose must be about power both political and Force-wise for its own sake. Anakin doesn't have anything like that and probably only boasted to Padme about taking down Palpatine because he wanted to convince her and was addled with the Dark Side. He never came to embrace the Dark Side for any grand plans, and frankly doesn't seem to have the mental acumen to bring any of those plans to fruition even if he did.

From what I see I don't think the Emperor ever saw Vader as anything more than a lackey. Vader himself has no personality at any point beyond that of lackey. Only at the end when he hurls Palpatine into the core does he come out of the lackey position and mindset.

 

Except he kept wanting to dethrone and supplant Palpatine long after he'd been placed in the suit. He wanted to rule the galaxy. Seems to be about as grand as you could get in my book. I think you need to read up on Darth Vader more if you think he had no personality beyond that of a lackey.

 

Sidious believed in his Rule of One doctrine. This is not to be confused with Darth Krayt's Rule of One. He believed that the Rule of Two had served its purpose. He considered himself the ultimate fulfillment of Sith ambition and philosophy, and therefore, he aspired to rule the galaxy forever as an immortal emperor with no need for successors. Sidious/Palpatine, like many Sith, was grandiose and sought to self-deify himself. I think that he cultivated many life-forms for the eventual purpose of killing them. He abused all of his apprentices and was cruel and manipulative to everyone who served him, Sith or not. I do think he wanted Vader to have the desire to kill him if only for Sidious to have the perverse pleasure of seeing Vader utterly fail. Then, Sidious would supplant Vader with a better executor of his will. He viewed Vader as less of a challenge. He wanted someone like Galen Marek or Luke Skywalker to replace Vader's posterior not only to have a fearsome agent at his disposal, but because Sidious is such a sadistic bastard that he enjoys games and machination behind the scenes. He wants to constantly remind himself that he is powerful and superior to others. He created an entire hierarchy of Imperial officers and dark side agents not only to enforce his will, but for him to exercise his twisted games. The man is a sociopathic, totalitarian ruler and pretty much the devil of Star Wars. At any rate, he articulated his Rule of One in his treatise, Absolute Power.

 

I've noticed recently, according to this comic book, Palpatine doesn't want that ;



Boba Fett - Enemy of the Empire

 

What if Palpatine planned to essence transfer into Anakin? I don't think that Palpatine had any intention of getting killed, but it's an interesting thought.

 

If he had planned it, it would've been before Mustafar. I know it's Legends, but Lumiya explained that her cybernetic parts prohibited her from achieving her full potential as a Sith. If that explanation can be considered canonical, I think Sidious would've abandoned that plan regarding Anakin after ROTS.