Does Vader let Luke win?

In the fianl duel in ROTJ, does Vader let Luke cut off his arm and knock him down? Or was Luke just more powerful

 

In my view, Vader's will to defeat Luke growths thiner and thiner as the duel goes on (due to his melt emotions at the moment), and in the other hand the not-so-well-teamed anger of Luke growths far too much. The tease about Leia being the next target in the Emperor's web of evil seduction has completely upset him. He is, well, one could say "stronger" than Vader at this point. But "stronger" is wrong if asked to Yoda : "Faster, easier, most seductive" would he precise, "not stronger". Luke then injuries his father and understands he's flirting too close with the Dark Side. You know the rest of it; he then confirms his Bespin choice (better die that live with the dark side).

But I don't think Vader actually and willingly "let Luke win". It's all emotional. And again, hadn't Luke stopped himself on this "winning" way, nobody except Palps would have called it a victory...

 

I've always felt that from the end of TESB to the end of ROTJ, Vader's resolve to become master of the Dark Side slowly but surely erodes and by the time he confronts Luke the second time he's in a state of emotional flux. I wouldn't say he consciously let Luke win, but his subconscious feeling probably robbed him of an element of ruthlessness when fighting his son. Luke's pretty powerful by then, too. Particularly when he lets his anger cut loose for a bit.

 

Yep, same opinion overall. I'm not a Starwars core-lore-keeper but I doubt this interpretation of the duel will be disputed. Actually I'd be surprised otherwise...

 

In fact, now that I think about it, I used to be far more unsure about what's precisely happening under the dark helmet at this point of ROTJ... since the PT came up. Now I understand, odd ins't it?
It's like, knowing the real Anakin before Vader time, I feel more comfortable with the comprehension of the falling Vader/re raising Jedi internal torments. Like if I finally accepted the real man under the cyborg suite...
Hope this credit to the PT existence will stay "unflamed" on this board

 

Agreed. Darth Vader didn't want to kill Luke, and by the throne room duel he had really lost the will to rise victorious. He was losing faith in the path he had chosen. He originally wanted Luke to willingly join him, and once that option was over and done with Vader I would say was just waiting to die. He no longer had hope of ever rising up over the Emporer, he had basically called it quits on having Luke follow in his footsteps- the motivation wasn't there. We all know that when Anakin/Vader is motivated and wants to win, he will. In this instance, he wanted Luke to win to see his full potential or to have his son finally destroy him and follow his destiny, do what he believed he could never do- destroy the Sith. He had also left his guard down, he was taunting Luke but he believed his son was strong on his morals- that he would never turn and never kill his father. He hadn't really expected Luke to run at him full throttle and take him down with such furious swings.

 

No actually I'd say Vader wanted Luke to kill him. You're right that he wanted Luke to follow in his footsteps and overthrow Palps, but he had decided that because his son had surpassed him in power that he would just sacrifice himself to turn him to the dark side. The Sith believe that human nature will choose evil over good and hatred over compassion, so Vader had to have been fully expecting Luke to fly into a rage and eventually kill him.

 

From my humble point of view when Vader lets go of his anger he is doomed. I don't think he let Luke win per-say. He did come to the understanding that the person he had been helping was not a good person.

But, the overwhelming love of his son saved him.

 

I wouldn't say he let Luke win, but Vader's conflict did make him weaker. Neither Skywalker is trying for most of the duel, with Luke simply defending himself while trying to redeem his father with Vader trying to convert him.

 

I've perceived it not as Vader losing the fight, but as Luke managing to win it. It isn't Vader's weakness that decides the outcome of the fight, it is Luke's sudden strength which comes an unfortunate place of darkness, in much the same way that Obi-Wan finds himself pulled in the prequels. Luke is actually more adept at channeling the dark side and hatred in that moment, overwhelming Vader, in my opinion.

 

I think its a parallel to the Anakin-Dooku fight onboard Invisble Hand: before they got angry, Anankin was just holding his own against Dooku, Luke just didn't fight, always just on the defensive, once the anger took over, well Dooku found out how powerful the Chosen One really is, Luke easily defeated Vader - Luke is stronger then Vader because suited Vader is more machine then man; whilst he may still be stronger then most Jedi, Luke is only one of a very few who are stronger then he is. This is also where the diffenrce between them lies - Luke let go his anger whenhe saw he was becoming Vader - Anakin just sought revenge against Dooku, and went just tht bit stronger.

My opinion, anyway

Daft-Vader

 

But it isn't a straight forward comparison. First, Anakin wasn't fighting a blood relative who he desperately wanted to save from the Dark Side; Second, Anakin didn't mention anything about feeling any "good" in Dooku - neither did Obi-Wan; Third, when Dooku was at Anakin's mercy, he didn't reveal some connection for Anakin which made him think "ZOMG I am going to end up like Dooku!!!"; Finally, Anakin loved Palpatine like family at that point - a mentor - a father - and trusted him. And that was who was egging him on.

Luke had a lot of advantages - a lot of good reasons not to turn to the dark side. Anakin didn't have any advantages. Luke wanted to save his dad; he thought his dad had good in him; he looked at his dad and knew he could fall like he had; and he had a family connection to his father - all that was brought home to him when he saw the mechanical hand, so like his own. Plus, Luke hated the Emperor, he had no prior relationship with him like "family", knew he was evil and did not want to join him on the dark side - and that was the person egging him on.

So while I am not saying Anakin wasn't being strong, because he should have been, the situations were totally different. Luke didn't face what his father faced and win - Luke faced a much easier situation than his dad had. Still, it was a brilliant choice for him to not give in to the dark side because he'd inhereted his dad's anger and could have fallen.

So to me, Vader didn't expect Luke's final charge - and when it came he had to fall back in defense. At the same time, he didn't want to kill Luke, that was not the plan. He was supposed to turn him and defeat him only. So while Vader could have perhaps raged forward with all of his dark anger and might and killed Luke, he didn't want to do that both because Sidious didn't want it and because he didn't want it either. So Luke had the advantage in that regard.

While I think Luke would be stronger than Vader if he were well trained and experienced, I don't believe he was in that moment. He was inferior and Vader could have killed him - but Vader wouldn't, so that was the only reason Luke had the advantage. Remember when Anakin faced Dooku, he was already very experienced and very well trained; he'd battled heavily for 3 years in the Clone wars and fought his butt off; so his winning was more than just pure rage. It was rage combined with skill. Luke didn't have as much skill or experience with lightsaber dueling, his training had not been entirely completed either. So he was going on pure rage - and since he had all the midos his dad used to have, he was formidable. But I think Vader would have killed him if he'd wanted to, simply because Luke lacked experience and skill - and too, Vader was no little easy touch. Despite being part machine, he was awesome and had killed many jedi in his 'machine' state.

So no, Vader didn't let Luke win, he wanted to defeat him. But he couldn't - perhaps he could kill him, but that was not an option as it would be a totally unacceptable defeat. So he had no choice but to remain defending and he was not strong enough without his rage and desire to kill to stave off Luke's ferocious charge. So in the end, Luke would have killed him, but for the reasons I gave, not because he was stronger in the Force - because we k

 

Some feel that Vader sort of "gave in" during the duel, but I feel that cheapens the entire film. The point was to show that Luke had reached the point where he eclipsed Darth Vader, which was why the Emperor wanted him so badly. It's one of those Cambellian themes about fathers and sons, I guess. Anyways, it's not such a reach. Vader may have not been fighting at one hundred percent, but Luke was almost a match for him at Bespin, and he's much better in ROTJ.

 

I watched TESB with commentary last night, and I think Lucas talks about how Vader had become conflicted even at the end of that movie. I don't think he intentionally gave in to Luke, but I believe his internal emotional conflict probably impacted on his performance in the ROTJ duel.

 

I agree with your whole post, but I can't understand why people always emphasize this scene. I understand the metaphorical connection and the symbolism, but think about it this way- This should've shown just what a BA Vader is. Vader felt the pain of losing his limbs and to think he purposely put his son threw the same, thats kinda harsh. I don't see why Vader couldn't just position his hand not even an inch higher and cut the saber hilt in two. That could've worked for symbolism too- Vader destroying the last trace of Anakin Skywalker. Well, until ROTJ.

 

I am pretty sure we already had a topic about this a while ago, but my opinion is the same now, as it was then. Yes and no, he didn't let him win, but he didn't let him lose either. At this point in the film, Vader has already partially convinced himself that he simply can't kill Luke. His comments to Palpatine in TESB about Luke joining them or dying was merely a stall tactic, designed to placate Palpatine. Even then, Vader had no intention of killing his son. Corrupt him to the Dark side? Yeah, okay. But, under no circumstances was he actually going to kill him. The duel on Bespin was merely a test of Luke's ability, Vader fights him one handed, totally goes half-assed the entire time. It wasn't a real fight. Maybe from Luke's perspective, but, Vader could have whipped him any time he wanted to on Cloud City. Then, when he offers the devil's bargain to Luke, he witnesses his son making the decision he failed to make 20+ years ago. He said no. He refused the Dark side, as Anakin should have.

That would have gotten Vader thinking about his life. Give him six months to stew it over, and by the time we get to ROTJ, Vader is caught between a rock and a hard place. He hasn't convinced himself to reject the Dark side, but, if he can't be turned back, and Luke can't be turned, Palpatine would expect him to kill Luke. So, Vader stalls for time, giving Luke the time needed to complete Vader's transition back to being Anakin Skywalker. Basically, Vader needed more convincing, and knew that he needed Luke to give him the extra strength he needed to do it. I do not believe that his decision to save Luke from the lightning was a spur of the moment decision, and his transformation back into a Jedi occurred in a few seconds...no way. Vader had been contemplating this for a while, all because of his inability to completely erase the good inside him. Vader knew he couldn't kill Luke, his son, he knew he needed Luke's strength to convince him to make the right decision, finally.

Vader knew he wasn't strong enough in his own convictions to make the decision to reject the Sith on his own, but he also knew that he had to make that decision, before he was put in a position where he would have to kill his son. From Vader's perspective, he won the duel...because his real duel wasn't with Luke at all, his duel was with his own emotional state. From that perspective, no, he didn't let Luke win. He let himself win a more important fight. Basically, their duel in ROTJ wasn't a physical duel at all. On the surface it appears that way, but it is really a duel of philosophies, and its a duel that Darth Vader needed to stretch out until he was convinced he had the strength to reject the last 23 years of his life.

 

Hi fellow fans,
this is my 1st post ever.

There have been many threads and people stating that Vader lets Luke win. What's up with everybody?
Why would anybody say so, because Luke beats him "with ease"? Couldn't you find a thousand better ways to explain this?
1st of, let me tell you, I have studied the duel in and out and know everything about it and around it. I don't think that any other person in the world has studied the duel as I have.
Vader letting Luke win doesn't make sense and is not stated anywhere at all. Why would Vader let his son win? Because he loves him so much? The RotJ novel says that Vader felt humiliated when Luke kicked him down the stairs. Then, he lets his son own him?
The point of the thread is "Does Vader let Luke win or is Luke too powerful for Vader?".
I tell you it's none. There is better ways to justify Vader's "easy" defeat. I wrote a blog about it...

Theories on Vader's defeat: http://blogs.starwars.com/saberb/6

 

I've always believed if Vader had been focused he would have killed Luke easily. There was so many emotions he was feeling. I believe at one point he really wanted to kill Luke out of anger and jealousy as the Emperor hints strongly at replacing Vader during the fight with Luke. I think it took him realizing that Luke was going to die by the Emperor for him to realize he truly didn't want this path for himself anymore, and he certainly didn't wish it on Luke. Does Vader let Luke win? I honestly think it went beyond winning and losing, and it became who was going to survive.

 

I don't think he let Luke win. I think Luke had finally managed to reach Anakin and his will to destroy Luke had grown to nearly non-existant levels by the time Luke releived him of his prosthetic hand.

As for whether or not Luke was more powerful at the moment; who knows. If you take a Prequel point of view, then yes, Luke was more powerful. Half of Anakin's original body was gone and had been replaced with cybernetics. That's a lot of midichlorians he lost. Luke, with only one prosthetic hand, was most likely much more powerful.

 

I would definitely say no, if anything, it's the other way around, Luke was reluctant to fight Vader. Lucas even mentions it on the ROTJ commentary, on the ESB commentary he states the opposite. Vader wanted to use his son, capture, not killing. By ROTJ he had already failed, his place was now in question, since Sidious wanted Luke as his new apprentice. Luke first completely controls the duel, he has become much more powerful then Vader. And Vader, well his master is right there, ofcourse he's trying his best, after Luke humilates him by knocking him down and taunting him that he feels his father's conflict and that he doesn't believe Vader can kill him, Vader gets really pissed off. He almost succeeded in getting his son to fall, by using Leia.
As it stands, Luke was holding back, Vader was not, confirmed by George.

 

That's not relevant to his midichlorian count, which remained the same.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that Vader threw the fight intentionally. The move he does to set up losing his hand is incredibly awkward. Vader was emotionally conflicted by that point and did not have the resolve to kill Luke.

 

No, Vader did not let Luke win. Everything that he'd been doing since Bespin was to seduce Luke to the dark side. He wanted Luke to help him destroy the Emperor and "rule the Galaxy as father and son." Vader wanted to usurp Palpatine's position as the master, with Luke taking up Vader's former position of apprentice, but to do that he would first have to establish himself as the superior of the two. And to do that, he would have to first antagonize Luke to the brink of unleashing his true power, his true strength (as a dark sider would see it), then beat him in spite of it. Vader needed to prove that he was the better of the two, so he wouldn't do something as silly as throwing the fight. The taunting words of "perhaps she will" were meant to draw Luke out so he could do precisely that.

But it obviously didn't go according to plan. Luke came at him with such fury as to throw Vader off. Vader knew he would hit a nerve, but he never guessed he'd get that much of a reaction, and it threw him off. When Vader snapped his head over to Luke's position after Luke shouted "NEVER!", I gathered that it was an "oh, ****" moment for Vader. Luke's charge literally scared him, and he was thrown off his game by the sheer strength in each swing of his son's lightsaber.

Perhaps Vader finally saw the monster he had become in his own son's actions, which would explain the apparent weakness of the Dark Lord in the final moments of the duel. He wouldn't have thrown the fight, but he'd have lost much of the conviction that he had earlier; a moment of turmoil, if you will. There is nothing like your own son trying to end your life to wake you up to the horror that you have become... and if that didn't do it, then the knowledge that you drove him to it would.

 

Vader was conflicted, pendling between rage and love. And you never fight well if you are not focused on winning. I don't think he let Luke win, but he couldn't cope with the inner turmoil (different than deathstar battle against Kenobi or Bespin where he was playing with Luke).

Concentration is everything, and Vader was lacking in that regard.

 

I'm going to go ahead and agree 100% with Robal_Krahl. Good post!