Dogma and the Force

There are a lot of threads that deal with issues such as the Jedi code, "absolutes," balance of the force, and basic theological ideas presented in the movies. I failed to find a thread that was ABOUT the theological implications of the Jedi/Sith/Force. I hope this thread helps to outline what we see as the nature of such things as presented in canonical sources.

First, Dogma is defined as "An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. Synonyms...doctrine." http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dogma
The Jedi code is clearly dogma, and was stated to be exactly that by Palpatine, "The narrow, dogmatic view of the Jedi." Nowhere in the films are we shown exactly what the Jedi belief system or its code actually contains. We are presented with glimpses and references that lead us to believe that "anger, fear, aggression," hate, suffering, "oppression," "lies, deceit, creating mistrust," betrayal, "murder," dictatorships, using the force for attack, and to "rely on [one's] passions for strength" are part and parcel to the Dark Side of the force. Above all, it is repeatedly mentioned that the Dark Side is a source of great power. The Jedi express distaste for the Sith in all the movies, presumably because the Jedi completely renounce the dark side and its use. Yoda tells both Obi-Wan and Luke that the Dark Side consumes those who use it, and once someone begins to use the power provided by the Dark Side, "Forever will it dominate your destiny."

To go against the Jedi code is to risk expulsion. The two Jedi most renowned in the movies for thinking outside the realm of the Jedi dogma are Qui-Gon Jinn and Anakin Skywalker. Qui-Gon, although a well respected and powerful Jedi Master, is looked down upon and oppressed by the council for his differing views. It is explained in the novel adaptations of the films that Qui-Gon is devoted to the "living force," or a very personal application of the will of the force. The Jedi believe in the "unifying force," which Lucas explains as the "big picture." These two views are remarkably similar to the philosophical ideas described by Eros and Agape, personal love and divine love. Qui-Gon's differing views cause him to turn away from the council to do what he feels is right. Anakin similarly is bounded entirely in Eros, allowing his personal love for Padme, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, R2, and his mother to dominate his thoughts and direct his actions. Anakin is much less respected, however, given his tendency to become attached and his "arrogance" as viewed by the council. He is repeatedly lectured and dismissed by the council and denied the rank of master very similarly to the denial of Qui-Gon?s appointment to the Jedi Council.
Ultimately, Anakin?s profoundly personal love for Padme is what drives him to reject the Jedi code and turn to the dark side. Similarly, it is his personal love for Luke that ultimately returns him to his previous beliefs.

The major problem with the Jedi code, and any dogma for that matter, is that the dogma is created by mortals to FACILITATE the will of the force. At least in Qui-Gon?s view, at times the Will of the Force seems to be at odds with the teachings of the council and their code. Which begs the questions?
1.) Who created the Dogma in the first place?
2.) Does the force RESPECT that dogma?
3.) Which is ultimately more important, following the dogma or the will of the force?
With this in mind, it is important to recognize that it is Qui-Gon?s faith in the living force that is the difference that causes him to be the one to discover the afterlife. In other words, his adherence to the will of the force allows him to transcend his mortal restrictions and rise above both the council, and their dogma.

Anakin is most certainly the saga?s messianic figure. From his birth to his death, he fulfills the prophecy made and respected initially by the Jedi. He is constantly at odds with the council due to his attachments and his ability to think freely. Ob

 

excellent post

lots to think about in there

 

This is an awesome post - it'll take some time to consider the points you made and write a sensible answer.

Just one thing that came to mind immediately: IMO, you're completely right about the PT Jedi Code being a "dogma". And of course also with your definition that a dogma is "an authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true." Note the term "absolutely". Yet, Obi-Wan tells Anakin in ROTS that "only Sith deal in absolutes". Their dogmatism, so it seems, has led the Jedi way to become contradictory. They despise dealing in absolutes, yet in their adherence to the Code this is just what they do themselves.

It's one of several things that makes their way seem inconsistent and flawed during the PT. They despise absolutes, and yet their teachings are nothing but absolute. They preach compassion, and yet their methods of teaching Anakin are anything but compassionate. It seems they adhere to rules set in stone, and they aren't able to bring them into daily life and daily teaching. When an order is teaching rules but isn't able to transfer them into daily life, their teaching is literally dead.

 

I had thought about Obi-Wan's line about absolutes prior to posting this. It is true, the code is dealt with as an absolute in itself. "Do this, or you are not a Jedi."

As far as free thinking, I also had meant to include the most telling line concerning Jedi dogmatism, made by none other than Yoda all the way back in TESB. "No, no. There is no why."
"Why" is the most liberating question one can ask, especially from a philosophical point of view. As the Merovingian so aptly demonstrated in the Matrix trilogy, "Why" = power. Without understanding why, one cannot comprehend the REASON they do what they do.

In our own history, Socrates was executed for urging the public to question "Why." The Jedi, like any dogmatic group, discourage "why" in favor of blinded conformatism. Luke could not have helped redeem Anakin if he had not asked that very simple question.

 

This is a great point, concerning the "why".

From AOTC -

OBI-WAN: We are not going through this exercise again, Anakin. You will pay attention to my lead.
ANAKIN: Why?
OBI-WAN: What??!!

Well, he's not exactly being "executed" for asking "why", but he's humiliated in front of his beloved Padme (which probably is close to execution for him). I think you've really discovered something interesting here. Anakin Skywalker, some kind of Sokrates of the Prequels, asking unpleasant questions all the time? I'd have to think about this.

Yes, it seems you are right - Obi-Wan and Yoda, they've learnt part, but only part of the lesson by the OT time. Yoda's learnt more than Obi-Wan, I'd say. But none of them has learnt all that's necessary. Maybe that's why before Luke could set up a new Jedi order they had to die.

 

Wow, this is the best thread I've visited in a very long time. Excellent points, I agree with everything you guys have said so far. I especially like:
The messiah brings about salvation only by breaking down the Dogma he was meant to serve.
A very interesting point which fits the description of all mythical heroes(as far as I know).
Luke also goes against the Dogma that Yoda and Obi-Wan are feeding him and by doing that, he is able to become a messiah for Anakin. He saves his father from the dark side and allows him to be the greater messiah - the one who saves the galaxy by bringing balance to the Force(which he, as tomkat so eloquently put it, does by balancing body, mind and spirit).

It's interesting, though, that this point isn't made clearer in the movies. It's something that we have to figure out by watching the movies several times and thinking things through. That's the power of Star Wars!



Dogma - it's dangerous
/LM

 

An important irony in all of this is a lecture Obi Wan gives Anakin in Attack of the Clones:

"This weapon is your life!"

Just stop and think about that one for a moment. How on Earth is a WEAPON of ANY kind meant to be a Jedi's life? Now read this...

"Those who live by the sword, die by the sword"

Sidious knew this. Yoda knew this. Everyone else seemed significantly less attuned.

I believe Lucas wanted to establish the irony of the Jedi's behaviour and outlook in his choice of line, who said it, who they said it to and how they said it. Thus, we have Obi Wan, former apprentice of the compassionate and free-willed Qui Gon and master of the petulant and rebellious Anakin passing on Jedi dogma that's irksome, myopic and shocking. When paired up in one's mind with the above axiom and Luke's conscious and deeply personal choice to cast aside his lightsabre in Return of the Jedi, the theme is beautifully obvious and complete. At least to me.

 

a few thoughts on dogma, truth, knowledge and wisdom that might fit here:

The irony is that in the prequels the Sith, at least Sidious, didn't at all deal in absolutes: "Good is a point of view, Anakin." (Palpatine, in ROTS). The only Jedi I heard talking about a "point of view" in the prequels was Qui-Gon Jinn in TPM. It took until ROTJ when Obi-Wan started to talk about ponts of views to Luke.

Two seemingly innocent quotes from supporting characters have always struck me because of the momentousness of their meaning:

Dexter Jettster: "I thought you Jedi would have more respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom."
and
Jocasta Nu: "If an item does not appear in our records, it does not exist!"

The first one really describes the problem with a dogma. Teaching and living according to a dogma amounts to adhering to a knowledge base instead of developing wisdom. And the second one shows the results of this. Anything that is not recorded in the knowledge base simply does not exist.

And a last quote from ROTS - PALPATINE: "Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force."
Now, isn't that just what we are talking about? Of course, he referred to learning the dark side rather than balancing body, emotions, and spirit. Yet there's so much truth in this statement. Sidious had more wisdom than the whole Jedi Council together, it seems.

 

At least in this particular field. The Jedi are, of course, much wiser in the sense that they realize how much better democracy is than dictatorship. That is, however, beside the point

I must say that I never realized before exactly what Yoda's line "There is no why" means. It's very odd that I never noticed it before, because that's really not very good mentoring. He should encourage Luke to ask questions about everything he says, because otherwise, Luke will gain nothing but knowledge. Wisdom is much more vital for Luke's mission.
Luckily, Luke gains wisdom on his own, by breaking free from his dogmatic training process and confronting his father "before he is ready". In actuality, Luke confronted Vader at just the right time. The knowledge he gained through that confrontation made him step back and reflect on everything that he had been taught by Obi-Wan and Yoda and eventually realize what must be done.
Because of his "mistake", he surpassed all former Jedi(except, possibly, Qui-Gon) in wisdom and did what noone else could have done.

One could argue, though, that Luke would have reacted the same way to hearing the truth about his father even if he hadn't interrupted his training. He may still have gained the wisdom that he needed, only he would have been better prepared.
However, in what way could Luke have been better prepared? Everything in ROTJ goes according to plan and the fact that Vader cut off his hand the last time they met even helps him.
Maybe he would still have succeded anyway, though. His destiny was to turn his father back from the dark side, but how he got there was entirely up to him.

Maybe. Now I went off topic again. Sorry about that



Luke - he is wise
/LM

 

Mandragora said it.

The Jedi were no longer following the living Force, rather their own dogma. As such, to bring balance to the Force, both the Old Republic Jedi Order and their antithesis, the Sith, had to be destroyed.

 

On the "there is no why" topic, I don't think that this is a very good example of Jedi dogma being the reason they needed to be wiped out. I think that AOTC makes it clear that this is simply the reason Sidious was able to wipe them out, rather than some sort of explaination for the master plan of the prophecy involving the whole Jedi order being wiped out. I don't believe that the Jedi were causing an imbalance in the Force.

In context, Yoda is explaining to Luke the dangers of the dark side; "fear, anger, aggression" and so on, making it clear that if Luke goes down that path, he will suffer the same fate as "Obi Wan's apprentice." It's very clear cut, and the only alternative to the received wisdom of Yoda is finding out for himself what happens when you start down the dark path, which isn't really much of an alternative!

Luke's question is cut short;
"But why can't I..."
"There is no why. No more will I teach you today."

Now, I always had the impression that Luke question was going to be along the lines of "why can't I use the dark side just once" or "why can't I use the Dark Side to fight Vader"- to which Yoda's answer makes perfect sense; you just can't. As he had already explained, "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

(I think it's worth mentioning that Luke's training in an earlier draft involves lightsaber practice with Yoda, and there is a scene where Luke starts to use his anger and finds that it makes him more powerful.)

The scene then moves onto the cave, where the same thing is illustrated to Luke in a different way. His face underneath Vader's helmet is the closest thing to a "why" that there is.

Also, Anakin's "why" in AOTC clearly isn't a question or indeed anything to do with the distinction between knowledge and wisdom, but a direct challenge to Obi Wan's authority.
"...you will follow my lead."
"Why?"

 

I always thought Anakin's "Why?" was not meant to challenge Obi-Wan's "Lead" line, but was a direct lead-in to his next line. "Why do you think we were assigned..." He is thinking for himself here. Obi-Wan wishes to follow by wrote the council's mandate, while Anakin is actually thinking about THE PROBLEM. Protect Padme from an assasination attempt, and the assassins will just try again, like they did before. Actually confront the assasin, the source of the problem, and you may be able to rectify the situation.

I think this line is an excellent demonstration of the constraints on free-thinking the order had in place.

 

>>>>Actually confront the assasin, the source of the problem, and you may be able to rectify the situation.

Except the assasin wasn't the source of the problem. What Anakin did was lead the Jedi into the Sith's trap, and full scale war.

 

This is just nonsense, sorry. It was Obi-Wan, and not Anakin, who decided to jump out of the window and grab the droid, and it was Yoda, and not Anakin, who instructed Obi-Wan to track down the bounty hunters. It's really amazing how Anakin bashers try to find a case for bashing in every single scene. But this is going way of topic anyway.

tomcat364 raised another issue which has only been touched briefly so far:

Now I don't know the matrix commentary - but I've stumbled on the works of American psychiatrist Stephen Wolinsky early this year. He's been to many years of apprenticeship to an Indian guru and through studies in many kinds of psychological theories and forms of therapy. And he makes a case in "The way of the human" that spiritual teachings as well as psychological therapies and body-centered therapies suffer from what he calls a "confusion of ldimensions". He argues that each class of disciplines is only able to reach the one dimension it is related to - spiritual teaching can only reach the spiritual dimension, psychotherapy can only reach the emotional dimension, body centered therapies can only reach the body dimension. And he makes the point that oftentimes disciplines are targeted at the wrong dimension - for instance, spiritual teachings are applied to problems that have their root in the emotional realm, where they are powerless to achieve the results desired (he states the well-known examples of accomplished spiritual masters who, once they get out of their monasteries and start living in an everyday society, often fall prey to the very same emotional challenges of fear, greed, etc. which according to their own spiritual teachings they should have overcome long ago).

This seems to me to be the case with the Jedi way in the PT. They try to apply spiritual teachings to solve psychological and emotional problems. Especially in the case of Anakin. Where he would've needed to attend some kind of psychotherapy to overcome his traumatic childhood and the resulting problems of letting go, they tried solve these problems with spiritual teachings - which didn't work. They neglected the emotional dimension and focussed on the spiritual dimension. Thus their teachings were unbalanced with respect to the balance between body, emotions, mind and soul, i.e. between Eros and Agape, as you put it. And they were unbalanced with respect to the balance between the living and the unifying Force.

 

Anakin bashers? That's a pigeonhole I've not found myself in before...

When Obi Wan and Ankin meet Padme again, they are there to protect her. Obi Wan's focus is on defending the Queen, Anakin's focus is on attacking the assasin. Which just happens to be what Padme wants to do.

Yes, it's Obi Wan who jumps through the window, but he wasn't the bodyguard who was behind setting the trap in the first place. Why do you think Palpatine wanted those particular Jedi to be her bodyguards?

 

It is obvious why he would, isn't it? But this doesn't justify blaming Anakin for "leading the Jedi into a full scale war". Other Jedi had a lot more influence on this than him. And now I won't continue to discuss this topic in this thread any longer. It was a mistake to write a reply to an off-topic post to begin with, and I'm not prepared to help leading this thread, which is one of the best I've read in a long time, away from it's topic. This issue has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 

Another way of looking at what I shall term "The Jedi Problem" is to invoke the legendary Bruce Lee - master martial artist and philosopher extraordinaire:

(More quotes here: http://www.fightingmaster.com/masters/brucelee/quotes.htm )

There's a recurring theme in the above quotations - Lee stressed formlessness, fluidity and adaptability above all else. These are all things that the PT Jedi had little to no comprehension of. The Jedi Order's morality was not formless, fluid or adaptable; it was concrete, rigid and totally absolute. In their strict adherenece to codes and conventions, the Jedi comprising the Order were blind to a greater truth that "exists outside all molds", they "carried [their doctrines on their] backs" when they needn't have done, they failed to "[un]bound" themselves from "the principle", and "outward things" did not "disclose themselves" (Palpatine, the nature of the Sith, the nature of Anakin and the nature of the Force were all ephemeral to the Jedi).

Conversely, Luke, while still receiving a certain amount of dogma from Obi Wan and Yoda, took on board their teachings and his own feelings/experiences and fused the two into a greater and brighter whole. Luke truly did "learn the principle, abide by the principle and dissolve the principle" to bring himself and the universe back into balance.

 

Interesting thoughts concerning Bruce Lee. I had not heard those quotes before, although I had known of Lee's belief that there is no true "style" of fighting. The concept that each person adjusts moves and form to fit their own weaknesses/strengths is definitely an interesting concept amongst the Jedi. Anakin's defence of his "love" in AOTC is most certainly an example of his trying to fit into the Jedi order by making its dogma "fit" his beliefs.
"Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life... So you might say we are encouraged to love." One of the things that has changed for me following ROTS is that I can no longer see Vader as an embodiment of evil. He definitely does bad things, and his killing of the jedi/separatists is definitely not something to respect or try to glorify. Yet with the scene in palpatine's office and subsequent dialogue between anakin and luke, I definitely get the impression that anakin is trapped. In essence, he is always attempting to live up to someone's view. First, his owner, then the jedi, then palpatine. He DOES NOT FIT into their dogma. Thus he is alienated and simply trying to convince himself of things he doesn't believe.

Anyway, back to philosophy...
There is a quote by Rainer Maria Rilke, "If they take away my demons I fear my angels will take flight."
The Jedi seek to completely remove the dark side from their beliefs/practices, while the Sith fully embrace it. Luke on the other hand, seems to utilize parts of both, seeing the Grey area in the force.

Many posters have stated that the OT was black and white, good and evil, and that the PT made the force and the darkside more a shades of grey. In my estimate, the PT did nothing other than to make the OT shades of grey. What once seemed clear cut is no longer easily explained. In essence, it is a BALANCE of good and evil that is present in both Anakin and Luke (end of ROTJ)and lacking in both Sith and Jedi.

One last concept is a quote from Hellboy... "In the absence of light, darkness prevails." Obviously an ancient concept, but true in reverse as well. There is no good without bad, no light without dark, no happiness without suffering. Only by coming to terms with both extremes can the real ideal be reached.

 

I found this interesting article that claims that REVENGE OF THE SITH could be seen as a cautionary tale in regard to religion and dogma. Written by Marc T. Newman, it is called, "From Apostle to Apostate: Revenge of the Sith as Cautionary Tale" -

 

I disagree with you guys.

The Jedi faith is somewhat based on Buddhism, which teaches that only by annihilating all desires can one achieve enlightenment. The Jedi retain their identity in the Force only by dying in a state of complete compassion/unconditional love. It has nothing to do with Anakin's blinded, selfish love.

Also, Yoda's line, "There is no 'why'", isn't flawed. I always interpreted Yoda's statement as meaning that the Force is in complete control of everything. The Force is fate, itself. To question the actions of the Force would be foolish.

Note that Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT no longer hold the old views of the Jedi. If they did, they wouldn't have completely become one with the Force.

Other than that, I don't see any problems.

 

Oh. By the way.

There is no way to embrace the Dark Side in any form and not be pulled in by it. No matter what, once you open yourself to the Dark Side, you will fall into it.

I think you should reconsider your thoughts on Yoda's speeches.

 

There is no way to embrace the Dark Side in any form and not be pulled in by it.

i disagree.

the dark side is something we have to face and go through in order to understand the baser feelings we have. they belong to us and once denied they will mutate and eat us up from the inside.

luke has the benefit of the cave, he can face his fears and act on them.

what the jedi preach is love, unconditional love. that surely is a good thing. what they miss is to practice these things.

anakin doesn't have to adjust his philosophy to suit his needs, he gets it right, they should love everybody. they just don't live it anymore and he gets caught up in that.

i think somewhere in the starwars origins page it said that to reach enlightenment you'd have to get closer to the dogma. i'm not sure if this is true.
what i understand is that there is wisdom behind the dogma, too, and one is to understand what the wisdom behind it is. the jedi do not allow for their members to study the archives (if we are to believe the novel) something, which, IMO, would make people question things and maybe change rules around.
so, again, while their dogma is probably not the worst available, the way they adhere to it if it suits their needs and have forgotten larger parts of it altogether, is problematic.

or maybe i'm getting this wrong. maybe dogma isn't quite the rules. maybe it's soemthing else.

 

Many great points were made here; to this I will only add that the older, wiser Obi-Wan had detatched himself somewhat from Jedi dogma. From ROTJ:

"...so what I told you was true - from a certain point of view."

"A certain point of view?"

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

This statement alludes not only to Obi-Wan's interpretation of Anakin's conversion to the darkside but perhaps also to how the old Jedi order viewed the universe.