Dooku as Qui-Gon's Master: What was the purpose of it?

To me, before watching AOTC, one of the most interesting tidbits I knew was that Dooku might be Qui-Gon's Master. What could it mean for the story?, I wondered. I also thought Dooku would reveal his intentions; he left the order because of Qui-Gon's death. Maybe, I thought, the fact that Dooku was Qui-Gon's Master would be played as the great revelation of AOTC, ala ESB I am your father scene. I even thought that Dooku would taunt Obi during the duel, constatly referning to their Qui-Gon relationship, which I think would have been cool to increase the tension.

Then I watch AOTC, and to my surprise, this important plot point,or so I thought it would be, was almost totally unused or down played. Dooku says that indeed he was his Master, but he nor Obi make a big deal out of it, as if that were not so important. Then Dooku says he misses Qui and he might have joined him if he had known the truth. Period. That was it regarding Dooku and Qui-Gon relationship. Hey, Dooku could have been Qui-Gon's best friend, or a very close friend for all I know, and he could have said the same thing. Was it really necessary to have made him Qui-Gon's Master? If it were so, why was it downplayed to such a degree? Am I the only one who feels this way about this?

I think this plot point, was totally unused, I always thought that it would be a crucial moment for Obi to find out that in his training their might be influences of recklessness and ultimately tendencies toward the Dark Side. More importanly, if Dooku's idelogy made him a Sith, and Dooku trained Qui-Gon with almost the same ideology, what would that make Qui-Gon? I always thought this mystery and Obi's confusion would be discussed during the duel or when he was captured, but oh well...

I know that someone will say that GL is using a master/apprentice theme, etc., and I agree. My point is, I think the fact the your Master's Master is Sith is a big deal, you come from the same line of training and ideology. What would that make your master if he shared the same ideology? This is the point that I thought would be highlighted.

Without this, I think that it just makes the SW a very small universe and too coincidental. I feel Dooku being Qui-Gon's master and the same guy that started the Clone Wars brings almost nothing to the overall story. I would of preferred he would have been just a famous disgruntled Jedi.

Of course I'm open minded and would like to know what you think?

 

"What was the purpose of it?"

Well, it says a lot about Qui-Gon's rebellious ways, doesn't it?

 

It tells us more of the character of Qui-Gon, which I think is importaint. Qui-Gon is such an importaint character in TPM, that to completely forget everything about Qui-Gon in AOTC and Episode III wouldn't work well.

Also, I think it adds more tension to Dooku and Obi-Wan. Dooku suggests Qui-Gon would join his side, Obi-Wan completely denies it. It makes for a more intense duel at the end where Obi-Wan is almost to a point where he'd be glad to take Dooku out, adding on top of him disposing Anakin and being the cause of so many Jedi's death. You can see Obi-Wan looks pretty pi$$ed during the duel.

 

Ob12001:


Yes, as I stated above, I agree with that, but that is not the point.

Dude, did you actually read my post?


ST-TPM-ASF-TNE:

How do you know Obi was pi$$ed at Dooku during the duel because of what they had said in the interrogation room if they never refer to that? Your just assuming.

That is one of my points, they never refer to this in the duel.

 

Well Obi-Wan already knew in TPM that Qui-Gon wasn't exactly on the straight and narrow. So he must not be that surprised that Dooku is evil.

 

Actually, Dooku was made into Qui-gon's master so that there would be a kind of "six degrees of separation" between Anakin, Luke, and Yoda. Yoda trained Dooku, who trained Qui-gon, who trained Obi-wan, who trained Anakin, and then Yoda trained Anakin's son Luke. There's a quote by GL where he says something to that effect, I'll try to find it. Yoda's apprentices come full circle in the end. It's pretty cool I think.

Also, now Obi-wan doesn't look like this big failure because even Yoda had an apprentice fall to the darkside.

 

Maybe, I thought, the fact that Dooku was Qui-Gon's Master would be played as the great revelation of AOTC, ala ESB I am your father scene.

I don't know how you could have possibly thought this. Many audience members couldn't even tell you who Qui-Gon is.

Then I watch AOTC, and to my surprise, this important plot point,or so I thought it would be, was almost totally unused or down played.

It is not an important plot point. It is interesting back story. Your mistake.

Dooku says that indeed he was his Master, but he nor Obi make a big deal out of it, as if that were not so important.

But Obi-Wan already knows this, why would he make a big deal out of it?

I think this plot point, was totally unused, I always thought that it would be a crucial moment for Obi to find out...

So you had a personal pet wish to see this as a more important part of the story. I should care about this why?

There are a thousand interesting story lines that could be pursued. But it has to fit into a two-hour movie.

And we haven't seen EP III yet. A movie where both Dooku and Qui-Gon are likely to appear.

 

I vaguely remember after TPM that there were comments coming from Lucas about there being a flaw in Qui-Gon's training methods of Obi-Wan that Obi-Wan passes down to Anakin.

After AOTC I figured the flaw was possibly philosophical and had to do with Dooku's (and thus Yoda's) training methods.

 

Darth Zidious:


"I don't know how you could have possibly thought this. Many audience members couldn't even tell you who Qui-Gon is. "

Really, did you poll them?

"It is not an important plot point. It is interesting back story. Your mistake."

What the hell? My mistake? It was a personal opinion, I wasn't betting for it to come true. Not an important plot point?, who the hell are you to tell me if it was important or not.

"But Obi-Wan already knows this, why would he make a big deal out of it? "

The audience does not.

"So you had a personal pet wish to see this as a more important part of the story. I should care about this why?"

It was not a personal pet wish, it is just a personal opinion. I don't give a crap if you care or not.


"There are a thousand interesting story lines that could be pursued. But it has to fit into a two-hour movie."

Who the the hell do you think you are to judge what story line is important or not.

"And we haven't seen EP III yet. A movie where both Dooku and Qui-Gon are likely to appear. "

Really? Did it take you long to figure that one out.

Dude, if you're gonna come in here just to flame, don't post.

 

Probably GL just stuggling to give Qui-Gon SOME[b/] purpose in the SW saga!

 

Really, did you poll them?

Lucas: "Ultimately the final story is between Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and the Queen. It's really their story. Those four characters."

Qui-Gon is a secondary character. It's bizarre to think that the revelation of who is master was is as important as the biggest surprise in the OT.

The audience does not.

You explicitly said that Obi-Wan himself did not make a big deal out of it: "but he nor Obi make a big deal out of it..."

When I point out that it doesn't make sense for him to make a big deal out of something he already knows, you change the subject.

Who the the hell do you think you are to judge what story line is important or not.

*sigh* That's not the point. Within this universe, there are a large number of interesting story lines that George could choose to follow. He can't possibly follow all of them in two hours. Therefore, it is not valid to criticize the movie because it didn't happen to follow this particular story line. In fact, because it directly relates to secondary characters and only indirectly relates to a main character, it is a good candidate for omission.

 

Perhaps it's setting up the revelation in Ep. III that Qui-Gon is the one who ordered the clone army (with good intentions of course).


Maybe not... But ya never know...

 

Perhaps it's setting up the revelation in Ep. III that Qui-Gon is the one who ordered the clone army.

That would be a cool twist.

 

Qui-Gon is a secondary character.

Actually, Qui-Gon is a PRIMARY character in TPM. He was the one who started Anakin towards his destiny as the Chosen One. Also, I'm sure we'll see him in Episode III passing down the lesson on how to become a spirit to Obi-Wan and Yoda.

 

Yep, I'd have to agree. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were the heroes of TPM.

 

Actually, Qui-Gon is a PRIMARY character in TPM.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. I'm just saying it's unreal to think someone thought that the revelation of his master being Dooku (someone introduced for the first time in AOTC), would be as big as "No, I am your father." Bizarre.

And as I indicated above, we haven't seen EP III yet. There may still be something to this relationship.

 

Mobart Zmuda:

I think that is a cool idea of the six degree's of separation and how within the training line from Yoda to Luke there have been many flaws (Dooku, Anakin, and possibly Qui-Gon). Speaks a lot of the Jedi training and its downfall. It would be cool if Yoda actually refers to this in Ep.3 when all is said and done.

Master Chbel:

I agree with your opinion that there are flaws that have been taught from Yoda to Dooku and so on, and it gets finally into Anakin in the worst way of all. Obi also has it and proof of that is his "from a point of view" way of telling things, which we all know who he learned it from.

DarthWeenie:

Ha, yeah, maybe so. Seriously, I am one of those people who thinks that Qui's part in TPM is much more important than what we think and not just for the dissapearing trick many people say he will explain in Ep.3. I think he might shed light on more than that and perhaps explain the Dooku as a Sith motive.

Jedi_Master201: That would be something if Qui-Gon did do that for with good intentions and the end result was the Jedi's own destruction.

Durmwood: I agree, that would be one heck of a twist.

 

Dart Zidious:

"I'm just saying it's unreal to think someone thought that the revelation of his master being Dooku (someone introduced for the first time in AOTC), would be as big as "No, I am your father." Bizarre. "

What the hell is your problem dude? Now,you get to say what's unreal or bizarre, who the hell do you think you are?

 

Let's remain civil, please.

 

Now,you get to say what's unreal or bizarre, who the hell do you think you are?

I can hardly believe I'm having this conversation. I should ask for you to describe this scene in a way that makes it rival Darth Vader's surprise in ESB. I would find it very entertaining, but it isn't really on topic for this thread so I will spare you.

As I'm now saying for the third time, this relationship may have a payoff in EP III. If not, then it is just an interesting back story that didn't fit into the time constraints of a two hour movie. It's not a disaster.

 

"I can hardly believe I'm having this conversation."

Oh excuse me, I didn't want to take any of your precious time. Pathetic.

"I should ask for you to describe this scene in a way that makes it rival Darth Vader's surprise in ESB."

I never said it should "rival" ESB.

"I would find it very entertaining, but it isn't really on topic for this thread so I will spare you."

Haha, incredible, just how arrogant you can get.

"As I'm now saying for the third time, this relationship may have a payoff in EP III. If not, then it is just an interesting back story that didn't fit into the time constraints of a two."

Dude, who cares what you say.

 

Ahem...

I seem to remember asking everyone to remain civil.

 

"Perhaps it's setting up the revelation in Ep. III that Qui-Gon is the one who ordered the clone army."

That would be VERY cool. I hadn't thought of that. It would seem the kind of twist GL would throw in. I also like the 6 degrees of seperation. It does make the universe seem a little small, but it is sci-fi, and it does wrap it up well.

The idea that Yoda's training may turn out to be flawed is another point I like. He gets it worked out as proved in ESB and ROJ, but the thought of Yoda making a mistake makes me like him even more.

I also think it(Dooku-Qui-Gon) is more than "1 of a million different back plots". It is the center of the chain of events happening in AOTC. Maybe not center, but it is a big "happening".

'I'm just saying it's unreal to think someone thought that the revelation of his master being Dooku (someone introduced for the first time in AOTC), would be as big as "No, I am your father." Bizarre.'

Is this idea really that bizarre. No. Lucas droped that bomb on us in ESB, the "second" movie. Why would it have been hard to believe he would drop another one in the real second movie?? That would make perfect sense. I was very suprised to learn that they were all each others masters. I really hope that is touched on again.

 

Yoda to Luke there have been many flaws (Dooku, Anakin, and possibly Qui-Gon).

I dunno; I think Qui-Gon was a better Jedi than Yoda and Obi-Wan combined. He, )and Anakin to a point and perhaps Dooku as well) actually questioned the Jedi order instead of just constantly following orders. The fact that Jedi are just supposed to just follow code and if someone doesn't, they can be punished for it ("Master, you could be sitting on the Council by now if you would just follow the code...") is bizarre and ...wrong to me, for lack of better phrase.

If nobody questions anything, how can it improve?

 

"Yoda's apprentices come full circle in the end"

That's the sort of thing I love. Critics slam GL's work for being totally shallow yet after years slaving away on tfn, as a lurker then poster, interesting little tidbits can still arise which give you a slightly diferent perspective on the whole story.

Totally irrelevant, I know, but hey...
I'm a gusher.