Dooku vs. Vader

I know that Anakin beat Dooku pretty easily in ROTS, but I wondered...could a suited Darth Vader still have bested Dooku? Who do you think would win between the two? and also...suited vader vs. darth maul

 

Unpopular as this may sound, but I think Dooku would win Suited vader.

From a FILM perspective: Vaders movements were slow and obviously robotic in nature, prefering powerful blows over a speedy but precised battle. Also, in ESB Vader was fighting an inexperianced "padawan" if you will, who had never had a lightsaber fight in his life (that we're aware of, I don't know about his in deph training with Yoda) and in ROTJ, he gets trounced. Not a spectacular duelist in that suit is he?

Dooku was a master duelist who saw peoples flaws when fighting, and would have easily noticed how slow vader was with his movements. And as said was much faster.

Not to mention, Dooku would frazzle Vader with lightning (think rotj and how vader ended up) that is of course if he couldn't block it with the force.

As for Maul, I think Vaders knowledge of the force was too strong against a gymnastic apprentice with not much to say.

 

Interesting opinions. Personally, I disagree though.

Vader would have trounced both Maul and Dooku. Vader isn't as powerful as Anakin could have become, but I think experience had made him more powerful than Anakin was. Vader was a freight train. Anakin was powerful and rebellious, but he still fought like a Jedi. His end goal wasn't destruction of all that stood before him. Anakin was always a force to be reckoned with when his fury came out to play. Vader was the living embodiment of Anakin's fury, focused through an imperfect vessel. I think Vader's unrelenting drive and mastery of the force would dominate the, in my mind lesser, sith lords. Both Maul and Dooku were cocky. It strikes me that Vader is just there to get things done. He would go in and summarily destroy them before they even recognized how out of their league they were.

I don't think it's fair to use Vader vs Luke as an example. Vader wasn't trying to destroy Luke at any time. He was just trying to keep up with Luke and punish him enough to make Luke bow to him. He trounced Luke thoroughly on Bespin. On the Death Star, he was unprepared for Luke's strength and fury. He was put on the defensive and found himself facing the fabled Skywalker fury. He was unprepared. I don't think Dooku or Maul would ever be in a situation to catch Vader unaware. This is something only his son could do.

This is the man who has spent the last 20 years annihilating as many Jedi as he could find. I think he's still quite powerful.

 

The thing about Dooku versus Anakin that most of us have failed to account for was his Jedi-restraint. Vader would not start off like that, and clearly Dooku struggled to defend against Anakin's brute-power after being baited by the Count's taunting. Vader's lightsaber would easily absorb Dooku's weak lightning, but what about Dooku blocking Vader's telekinesis at the same time? I just don't see Dooku weathering Vader's storm...

he didn't posses the same level of self-loathing and hatred.
Vader was always willing to walk on the cliffs overlooking death, Dooku was not.

***

As for Vader versus Maul... it all depends upon which Maul that Sidious sends to fight.
The 20-year old replication, or a fully mature and trained clone... a *30-year-old* Maul would be a far greater adversary than a younger version of the Zabrak. The younger one would die just like in the Infinities comics. A slightly older Maul? I'm not certain Vader COULD win that fight.

 

where did u get the idea of an older maul? can u elaborate on that? and if there are some stories about maul, where can i find them?

 

The initial suit time might not be able to as he is diminished. By the time we get to ANH the Chosen one with 200 years of practice with a lightsaber and the Force and he wipes the floor with pretty much anyone from the PT.

 

As I said, Luke never had a lightsaber fight before, of course he was going to trash Luke, even if he was playing with him, it was like a Cheetah (Vader) versus a tortoise (Luke) in a race. It's hardly a case worthy of recognition in superior lightsaber skills.

The same could be said for Dooku in ROTS, he was unprepared for Anakin's much improved power and skill.

As cool and bad*** as vader is, I think he was simply too slow to keep up with a master duelist who's style was too quick, and precise. From a duelists perstective (a fencer) Dooku would win.

Look at Dooku's AOTC fight vs Vaders ANH or ROTJ.

To me it's a no brainer.

 

Suited Vader beat Luke in ESB purely because of his higher knowledge of the Force. In ROTJ, with Luke's fighting skills not amazingly improved, he wasn't so lucky.

Dooku, on the other hand, very nearly beat two of the greatest Jedi ever.

Dooku. Hands down.

 

Okay, arguably, no one is more powerful in the Force than Anakin yet....This kid doesn't have an ounce of sense in his head. Emotions and possessive love overrun EVERYTHING with him. He's brash and doesn't think.

Realistically, the reason why Dooku lost to ditz Ani is because he *had* to for the story's sake.

Dooku is by *far* the more experienced, more sensible, and more skilled fighter. Look at AOTC, see how easily Dooku succeeded in riling Ani into a blind confrontation.

I say Dooku would win hands down, every time!

 

I also think that a seasoned Darth Tyranus could defeat Vader. I would also look at Tyranus' AotC's duel with Yoda. It was even in terms of their "Knowledge of the Force," and the lightsabre duel was also even. Both of them were pretty used up by the end of it. I don't think anybody would say that Vader could defeat Yoda, so therefore Tyranus beats Vader.

 

No one has a higher midichlorian count ( that we know of ). But many characters have more experience.

 

Exactly! That's partially why I'll side with Dooku every time. (Plus Sir Christopher in SW is simply *cool* Even if he *had* to die helplessly. Which is so uncool.)

 

Im sure Vader was stronger in the force. Lightsaber skill? Well, Dooku is a true master with the sword.

But i believe that if you pit Vader agains any foe (other than his son) in a battle to the death, im having a hard time picturing any of them leaving that battle alive.

 

Throwing EU out of the way, and sticking just to the movies... Vader wins. Adding in EU material just makes Tyranus go down faster, harder, and in a far more entertaining manner.

My reasons? Let's look at Dooku's big weakness: raw strength. When he ticks off Anakin, the Chosen One goes truly medieval on Tyranus' heinie, and his fabled fencing skills do NOTHING to hold back the raw fury of Anakin's blows.

Then let's look at Vader: he undeniably hits harder than Anakin, because both of his limbs are now powered by cybernetics AND the Dark Side. He can lift AND hurl a man one-handed even WITHOUT the Force, so adding the Force to his swordplay means that Vader is pretty much like Cecil Fielders, my all-time favorite ball player. Dude didn't run, but when he connected with the ball, HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. The thing went flying clean out of the park, because Fielders packed incredible power in his swings.

So, now that we've established that Vader possesses even MORE of the element that let Anakin best Dooku/Tyranus, let's go to swordplay. While Vader isn't flipping around anymore, his swordplay is VASTLY improved. You can see elements of all the different lightsaber styles- INCLUDING DOOKU'S- in Vader's swordplay. And unlike Anakin, who put in a lot of fancy, unneccessary twirls, Vader is all brutal economy. He never wastes a move, and almost every strike is intended as a killing blow. His point work is also remarkable, allowing him to disarm and basically toy with opponents if necessary, as seen on Cloud City, where he REPEATEDLY disarms Luke or otherwise has him at his mercy; it's notable that as soon as Luke shows he's capable of striking Vader, he finds himself instantly battered and beaten down and has his hand lopped off in a brutal display that shows just how much Vader had been holding back thus far.

Vader's swordwork has two settings: toying with you or killing you. He doesn't waste movement on artistic flourishes, and his powerful blows are going to send Tyranus reeling like the old man he is. Sure, Dooku may score a few glancing blows, but as we saw in ESB, nothing but a dead-on hit is going to do much more than piss Vader off, which I think we can ALL agree is a BAD thing.

Next, the Force- while Vader obviously lacks potential compared to Anakin, I'd argue it's blatant that Vader's far superior in actualized power. After all, while suited Vader is limited to 80% of the Emperor's power, did Anakin as of Revenge of the Sith actually show he WAS that powerful? I'm convinced he DIDN'T- and in fact, I'd say putting him at 60% would be far too generous.

Now, Vader as of the OT is a man who's spent the past two decades doing nothing but honing his Force abilities. He displays incredible power, and in fact he's only defeated by his own son using the Dark Side, and even then, it's only when his son ALREADY shows the ability to duel him on more or less equal footing ANYWAYS. He's always in control of his abilities, and no one but the Emperor dares question him, because he basically has no rivals. Even Yoda, the guy who had Dooku on the ropes in AOTC, knows that he might not be able to take Vader consistently, and training Luke and Leia is too important to chance losing to Vader before he can pass on the lessons Luke and Leia need to know. Not to mention the fact that Vader's skill in the Dark Side is so great that he can Force Choke you from what could possibly be KILOMETERS away (hey, the Executor is 19 kilometers long, but to be fair, and given Vader's chambers are somewhere midships, and the bridge where Ozzel was was somewhere near the rear, that means he was still something like 7 to 8 kilometers away when he killed Ozzel). Have we seen Dooku display this level of power? No, not really.

So, in Force powers, you could easily give Vader the edge as well.

Conclusion: while Vader may lack Force Lightning or the incredible acrobatics of Maul or Dooku, he's far worse. I'd say Darth Vader is like the Godzilla of Sith Lords: he doesn't move fast, but he doesn't really HAVE to. See, Vader can tak

 

Just sayin, DewBack.

 

Yep- I DID see that post, and I QUITE agree. As you can imagine.

 

So, now that we've established that Vader possesses even MORE of the element that let Anakin best Dooku/Tyranus, let's go to swordplay. While Vader isn't flipping around anymore, his swordplay is VASTLY improved. You can see elements of all the different lightsaber styles- INCLUDING DOOKU'S

What??
Vaders style is the complte opposite of Dooku's, Dooku's has fencing with a bit of Kenjutsu thrown in.

Vader just hacks with no precise or even skilled movement.

as said we don't know how powerful vader is, it's easy to look like a master against a novice with a lightsaber, I bet even Ahsoka Tano could deliver powerful strikes that would knock Luke for six.

He was laughable when fighting Obi-Wan in A new hope,

are you seriously suggesting A new hopes Vader could win in a one to one duel with Dooku? after taking two on at the same in ROTS wihout breaking sweat?

I agree about the force thing though, but I don't think you should underestimate how powerful Dooku was with the force either.

 

ANH was a garbage fight, it doesn't even measure up to ESB and ROTJ... let alone any of the prequels. Dark Lord stated that Vader's strikes were fueled by an almost unfathomable rage and that his lightsaber strikes posessed the weight of an anvil. Dooku couldn't handle Anakin when he was mildly-pissed, so I just don't see how he could handle Vader who was uber-pissed 24/7.

 

be that as it may, ANH is STILL a lightsaber fight, and shouldn't be overlooked as if it didn't happen because of embarrassment.

The evidence is clear: as seen on film this is fact not opinion (apart from anh which in my opinion):

ANH: Vader seems to be struggling against Obi-wan at some points, not sure if this was intentional, or just an ackward scene

ESB: was fighting someone who has never dueled before, a Padawan in jedi terms

ROTJ: got trounced fairly easily, even before Luke got peeved (Vader got kicked down the stairs, a bold move for Luke to do, considering he could have had lis leg cleaned right off)

the films speak for themselves IMO.

 

If we go by film evidence alone, then there is no debate.
All PT saber-users would clean the clocks of the OT-ers.
And, it wouldn't even be close.

Had Sir Alec had the same bene's as Mister Lee, I doubt his ANH duel would have looked as crummy as it currently stands...

But, by going with the films alone: PT-Dooku would slice OT Vader to shreds.
Neverminding that PT-Dooku was a CGI face and all stunt double, and OT Vader was just Prowse... See Charn, I find it very difficult to compare the duels from the two trilogies given the lack of technology in filming the OT. Maybe its just me.

 

that's why I think Dooku would win vader, from a films perspective
Don't get me wrong I'm sure vader is more powerful with the force and would probably hold his own quite well, but to say he's on par as a duelist as Dooku was doesn't ring true.


maybe that's something Lucas should touch up on his latest special editions, speed up vader and add a twirl or two

 

Funny you should say that... three years ago I started a thread:
Redoing the Duel (DeathStar) and I got scorched over it. IMO: Ewan and Hayden would gladly throw on a fake beard and the Suit JUST to go at it again.

 

I see no reason why they couldn't, wasn't Obi-Wan hooded during his fight with vader? adding a bit of a PT type duel from Lukes point of view wouldn't be a bad thing.

you got scorched over it? ouch.

No pleasing the purists huh?

 

Yeah....
to say I was flamed Charn, doesn't do the napalm; that was dropped on my head, any justice.
So I prefer scorched. Sounds a bit more fun, no? And really, a hooded Ewan and a suited Hayden couldn't possibly be any worse than what's already on the Star Wars SE DVD.