Fathers and Sons in mythology

So here's a topic I've always wanted to have a discussion on in a Star Wars context, and I've never had a chance.
Is it necessary in mythology for the Son to overcome (or kill) the father (or father figure)? Must they be in conflict?
The Greeks in particular were crazy for this motif. We see it repeatedly Star Wars.

Obi-Wan kills the enemy that Qui-Gon (his father figure) could not defeat.

Obi-Wan loses to Dooku (father figure of Obi-Wan's father figure). Anakin tries to do what his father figure cannot, and fails as well.

Dooku cannot overcome Yoda (a veritable god figure in the Star Wars mythos)

I'm sure Ep III will have more, but the obvious one is:
Anakin fights Obi-Wan, and while he is defeated by Obi-Wan, he is remade into Vader who wipes out the Jedi Order, and everything Obi-Wan cares about.

Vader does eventually defeat Obi-Wan, but Obi plays the pattern against Vader by giving up the fight, making Vader's victory hollow and becoming one with the Force.

Luke fails to best his father's "killer" (Vader), but he does defeat his father (once he knows who Vader is).

Joseph Campbell said the conflict between Father and Son was a necessary element in myth.
Lucas disagrees.

What do you all think? Do myth sagas need this element at some point? Does Lucas tap into them without meaning to?

 

...maybe not. It could be a reversal of the Odeapus (sic) Complex.

Well, wait...hey you're right, WTH!!!

I don't know, but it is a very, very interesting observation...one I have not found discussed nor thought of myself.


Please don't use that abbreviation.

 

...oh also I think everyone likes when a little revenge is dished out. If for nothing else we have all experienced a time when we wanted to do the dishing but could not (too young,scared,etc) do so at the time.


Revenge is a desert best served cold! (and by my son)LOL!!!!

 

The killing of the father is very evident in Greek mythology. Especially in regards to the story of Zeus.

-Seldon

 

Seldon does make a good point to answer your question...however it still makes you wonder if GLs actions were accidentally "Greekish" or vengefully "Freakish".

 

Like I said, the Greeks were lousy with sons killing fathers (or their father's murder). Perseus kills his grandfather, Jason killed his father's killer, Paris was the cause of his father's death, and so on.

In the Icelandic Sagas hero's sometimes killed their father if their king sided against the father's side. I assume if I read farther I'd find someone avenging their father's death.

Horus fought Set who killed his father Osiris.

The entire Irish odyssey occurred to pay a blood price for killing someone's father (the three paying the price died at the end as a result of the final price).

It goes on from there.

So is either killing your father or his killer a necessary right of passage in mythology?

 

No, it's not necessary, but it's effective. Simple, yet powerful.



Star Wars is six, two and one
/LM

 

GL said Vader and Obi-Wan were two different kinds of a father in relation to Luke.

In the PT it can be seen as Obi and Palpatine to Anakin.

 

I had never considered Palpatine fulfilling the role of father for Vader, it was such a short scene in Ep II after all but I see that it makes sense. Of course Vader dropping Palpatine down the shaft makes it yet another father killed by the son.

I suppose I should restate my earlier question, is avenging a father or committing patricide one of many possible rights of passage for the mythological hero? Why does supplanting the father evoke such a response in the audience? And why do the heroes in Star Wars love killing their fathers so much?

 

Anakin is always searching for a father and Palpatine is one of the people who fills that role, or exploits it.

-Seldon

 

I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's necessaily about KILLING or DEFEATING the father, as much as it is about PROVING YOURSELF to your father or father figure in the case of STAR WARS.

 

Good point. It's about growing up and becoming a man, like the father.



Where is mother?
/LM

 

It is a classic story of son versus father that is found throughout mythology. From Yoda versus Count Dooku to Count Dooku versus Qui-Gon to Qui-Gon versus Obi-wan to Obi-wan versus Anakin to Darth Vader versus Luke(literally his own son)to Darth Vader versus The Emporer at the end of Return of the Jedi.

Remember Darth Vader literally means "Dark Father."

I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas had some sort of problem with his own father. He certainly had problems making the movie with the Old Hollywood system versus the New Hollywood...not to mention his mentor Francis Ford Coppola.

 

Lucas has stated many times that he has no problems with his father, and never has. The reason for the struggle between father and son, is based on mythology not on his own experience. At least that is what he says.

In my opinion, the struggle is so evident in all of his work, that there must be something whether consciously or unconsciously that is a reason for it. Now Lucas has stated that it has nothing to do with his father. There are many different ways of looking at it, the struggle between father and son could represent the struggle between Old Man Hollywood and the independent film company of American Zoetrope and later Lucasfilm. The master/apprentice relationship could be similar to the Francis Ford Coppola/George Lucas relationship. I?m not saying that I actually believe this, just that it is interesting.

The main objective is to make a myth set in space. He weaves different motifs, themes, archetypes, and stories into one vast tapestry which is Star Wars. It is however impossible, not to consider how his own life influenced the work. In this matter, while his personal struggles may have influenced the stories, the father son thing is more of a mythological point.

-Seldon

 

The best father and son movies are " The Lone Wolf and Cub " series which has recently been rereleased in their original order, subtitled, and digitally remastered. Im not kidding either, those movies rock. Historically accurate in details like clan names and affiliations, mood and setting- not the stories themselves, although historians wonder because it takes place during a very mysterious era of the Tokugawa Shogunate which the manga and the movies are trying to answer for. With kick ass action and very, VERY moving father and son stuff. The original manga is quite spectacular also, if your into that stuff. It has alot of mythological aspects to it, thats why I brought it up in this thread.

 

Why not Mothers and Daughters ?

 

The Vanity Fair artical DID suggest that Lucas and his father HAD dissagrements....especialy when he wanted to make film instead of joining his father in the his business.

I'm sure that it never got to the point of sword fighing, but every Father and Son have SOME form of tension.

Lucas main thrust.. and moral for the story is this. "It is up to the younger generations to redeem the sins of the older generation"

Normally, in mythology, it is mearly the cycle of life... the old replaces the new. Lucas is takeing it a step further, and saying that the younger generation may have a bigger responsiblility than replacement, but to make real attempts to make the world better.

 

As I noted in the first post, Lucas said he did not think it was not necessary for the son to overcome the father.
Campbell said it was a necessary in mythology.

As I see it, this is how the son proves himself, it allows the son to leave his father's shadow, and become the new hero.
I would submit that in stories as clearly linear an unambiguous as myths it is necessary for the son to overcome the father, either metaphorically or actually, if the son wants to become the hero. In myth we see greatness in the characters (great nobility and humanity), and nothing but superlatives will do for these characters. As that is the case, being 2nd best to one's father (-figure) means the character never truly reaches the heady heights of 'hero'.

And to mothers and daughters? The relationships are different in many respects, but I would love to see it in a mythological style of story that plays the same dichotomy. It's a bit of a cultural blind spot, even in cultures with warrior women. Sigurd got to run around and have adventures. Brynhild got to sleep.

 

That's why I wrote the question.