For fans of Tolkien and Star Wars

I was once known as Jedi Master Isaiah. I have changed my name to Tolkien-Gandalf. It should be obvious why.

John Ronald Reuel Tolkien was a brilliant man. He was a linguist and an intellectual. In his lifetime, he created a grand mythology. It included The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and The Lord of the Rings. The Silmarillion is about how elves and men came to Middle-earth and their war with Morgath. The Hobbit is about Bilbo Baggins, who goes with dwarves to defeat the dragon Smaug to obtain treasure. The Lord of the Rings is about Frodo Baggins, who is chosen to destroy the One Ring of the Dark Lord Sauron.

I have read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, and I will later read the The Silmarillion. Star Wars used to be my favorite fictional saga before I read The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was better at creating mythology than George Lucas. I think Star Wars is primarily science-fiction. I see little mythological elements to it. Furthermore, Tolkien put enviromentalism in his novels. This is vested in the Ents, the shepherds of the trees. They are infuriated when Saruman tears down trees to create his orc army, so they march on Isengard.

I recently saw The Two Towers. It was a little different from the book. In the movie, Faramir wanted to use the Ring to help Gondor until Sam talked him out of it. In the book, Faramir immediately rejected the Ring. In the movie, the elves fought with the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep. The elves never came to Helm's Deep in the book. Also, the Ents decided immediately to attack Isengard in the book. Not so in the movie, for Fangorn aka Treebeard decided after seeing dead trees killed by Saruman. I think the movie is better than the book, however. The idea of putting the Eye of Sauron on Barad-dur was brilliant.

"There is union between the two towers: Barad-dur, fortess of the Dark Lord Sauron, and Orthanc, stronghold of the wizard Saruman."

Not bad at all.

The Return of the King will be great. I read the book, so I know what will happen. I always find it intesting that is Eowyn who defeats the Lord of hte Nazgul. Frodo is corrupted by the Ring, and it is Gollum who bites of his invisible finger as the Ring is on it. Gollum is destroyed with the Ring in Mount Doom. The weirdest thing was that Saruman temporarily took over the Shire. It was good that Wormtongue defeated him.

Do any of you think that Tolkien's world is a better mythology than Star Wars is?

 

Star Wars used to be my favorite fictional saga before I read The Lord Of The Rings. Tolkien was better at creating mythology than George Lucas. I think Star Wars is primarily science-fiction. I see little mythological elements to it.

Everybody has their opinion but I disagree-at least on the statements that Star Wars has no mythological links.

That was one of the sole reasons Lucas decided to make the saga to begin with. Whether LOTR has a better conection to mytholigy is not my place to debate since i'm not a huge fan of LOTR. Star Wars is about a man's fall and redemption. Almost every element to it has mytholigical roots to it including things as small as statements and settings to storylines etc.(Most things in the movies can be traced back to some symbolization in legend and mytholigy)

 

I think that, if the mythology of Tolkien's world seems a lot deeper and grander than Star Wars, that's very understandable because obviously there's a difference between what you can do in a book (or live five) to what you can do in a film (or six.) And movie wise, Star Wars is very good IMO and has a lot of mythological elements, more so than average. Also many things in Star Wars resemble things in LOTR which in turn come from other, archetypal sources (idea of the young person going on a quest against evil, like Luke or Frodo, with various "travelling companions," often to destroy a piece of stuff (the Ring or in ANH the Death Star)) and it's not a surprise why lots of people who love Tolkien's work also love Star Wars, myself included. Plus Star Wars too has some of those "environmental" elements as you put it- when I was watching the Two Towers Friday, at the point when the Orcs were destroying the forest, I was reminded of an early scene in the Phantom Menace where you see the battle droids going around wrecking the Gungun swamp for no reason. Both stories have that theme- the idea of life and nature (like Ents or, in Star Wars, the Force- like the "Living Force" as Qui-Gon says) triumphing against evil which prefers technology/machinery- "a mind of metal and wheels."

 

I think Star Wars is primarily science-fiction. I see little mythological elements to it

I was having that debate with a friend just the other day, he called Star Wars Sci Fi and I said it was Fantasy. Star Wars is only Sci Fi on a superficial level to me, there are so many mythological parts to it, Jedi are basically Wizards, Darth Vader/Maul is simply the Evil Dark Knight our hero must slay, Lightsabers are swords etc.

Here is a nice read

 

Star Wars cannot be sci-fi... it happens in the past.

But seriously, it's fantasy.

 

Yep...

 

It´s both. And more. It´s MYTH!

 

I was once known as Jedi Master Isaiah. I have changed my name to Tolkien-Gandalf. It should be obvious why.

Then what are you still doing here? Get thee to the forums at TheOneRing.net.

And SW has plenty of mythological elements in it. After all, Lucas was greatly influenced by the writings of Joseph Campbell.

 

J.R.R. Tolkien was an amazing individual...or insane. Do you know that creating languages and not only creating languages but becoming obsessed with creating languages is a symptom of schizophrenia? Don't get me wrong, I love LOTR but even as the story is enthralling, it is extremely difficult to read. The books are just a bit obsessive about too much detail...and the poetry...Of course, alot of people thought Einstein was insane too. And I think George is a tiny bit anal retentive. I guess great creative thinkers are all a little looped...

 

how could you like the movie better then the book? O_O

(I thought the movie deviated from the book to much in turn making it much less entrhalling)

 

qui-gon-kim, I think he knows where to post...

obviously you don't.

 

Thanks Qui-Gon-Kim for the information about TheOneRing.net. I'll look into it.

I have always seen Star Wars as more of a psychological lessen. It shows how a good person like Anakin can become an evil Sith Lord named Darth Vader.

I do think that it is interesting that both Lucas and Tolkien view evil the same way. The One Ring only brings Sauron great fortune. It can only corrupt others. The same is true with the Force. Although the Jedi know how to use it for good, the Sith are corrupted by it. It's a scary message: "Look at Palpatine over there. You could be like him someday." There is something within everyone's heart that can make them evil. Star Wars and The Lord of the Rings make that clear.

Naccha, Tolkien was not nuts. He was a friend of Clive Staples Lewis. Geniuses are different from normal people. They can be sensitive and shy. Invinting languages was brilliant. Tolkien was a linguist, and that is what he liked to do. I am invinting two languages nowadays for my own novel. There is nothing insane about it. Einstein had Asperger's Syndrome, so don't even go there. Tolkien was like Einstein in personality to an extent, so don't even think about it.

Who do you think is an eviller villain? Palpatine or Sauron?

 

The Mythic symbols in Episode II are very dark, foreshadowing of the fall of the republic and the rise of the evil empire. The scene from the movie is in the beginning. The viewers are blessed with what appears to be almost untold beauty with the clouds. In this scene you begin to draw parallels between this and quite a few myths, the first one to come to mind would most likely be Asgard, the realm of the Gods in Norse mythology. While it is not this particular image that stirs the mind to come to this conclusion it is the state in which Coruscant is in.
A near pre-Ragnarok state if you could call it that, Ragnarok being, in the most simplified terms the end of the world. However, this is not just limited to Earth or Midgard as it was called, rather the end of Asgard itself and all the ruling powers that dwelled within. An interesting parallel that is not really seen in this is how they are both depicted as working societies, in Coruscants case; it is much like a democracy, which is indeed fleeting. In Asgard Odin technically rules over all matters, much like a democracy, however he does leave other gods or goddess to do the more menial of jobs that exist in Asgard, which of course makes Odin a dictator, something Coruscant becomes over time.
In Norse mythology Ragnarok is brought about by Surt, lord of the fire giants from the fire region known of Muspelheim and will lay waste to Asgard and Midgard. Later in the film the movie reaches it?s climax on the hellish planet Geonosis, this is almost a direct parallel to the battle that is fought is Muspelheim as the Norse gods and their slain warriors compiled by the Valkyries try to push the giants back. Geonosis and Muspelheim have many eerie similarities in that they both are very barren and are typically depicted with fire or the color red. Finally leading to the end of the film you can see the clone troops marching into transports with a very red sky as the backdrop now in Coruscant, again a parallel to Asgard during Ragnarok.
Referring back to the situation in general it may also be stated that like the gods of Asgard the Jedi really did not have any clue that they had an enemy on their own lines. In the scene where Palpatine is giving his speech to the rest of the representatives of him obtaining emergency powers the scene goes to Yoda and Mace talking about whether or not what is happening is indeed the right thing. In the case of Asgard it is Loki who brings about a terrible downfall to many a god in order to assume power within Asgard through trickery and deceit. In addition to this he also aids the fire giants just as Palpatine plays a dual role as Darth Sidious.
Whether it is the scene that seems inspired as a prelude to the coming destruction at the beginning or in the end where it seems like they are descending into the bowels of Muspelheim the parallels between Episode II and Norse mythology are strong and seem to play a strong role in its forging and symbolism together.

 

Ah, very nice.

I think that I like the mythological connections, however cryptic, in Star Wars better than the religious ones. All this Bhuddhist and New Age stuff is distasteful. The Christian connections in The Lord of the Rings are nice.

"I am the servant of the Secret Fire (Holy Spirit), wielder of the flame of Arnor. Dark fire shall not avail you, flame of Udum! Go back to the Shadow (hell)!"

-- Gandalf the Grey

Gandalf seems like an angel. Saruman seems like a fallen angel serving Sauron (Satan). (Afer all, Gandalf and Saruman are immortal Ainur spirits. Sauron is also an Ainur.) Saruman is one of my favorite charecters. I like Christopher Lee a great deal. Whether he is Tyranus or Saruman or whoever, Lee is magnificent.

I think what Star Wars lacks is real dieties. I am a Christian, and I am a monotheist. But mythologies need dieties. Even Tolkien's Middle-earth and the Blessed Realm have gods, as can be seen in The Book of Lost Tales (which he began writing in the trenches of World War I) and The Silmarillion.

The Lord of the Rings is not an allegorical novel. Sauron is not Hitler, Saruman is not Japan, the Rings are not nuclear weapons, Rohan is not America, and Gondor is not the Soviet Union. Tolkien was brilliant not have written an allegorical story. Allegory is intersting, though.

Do any of you think that Star Wars has any historical parallels? They say Palpatine is like Hitler. He is hedonistic, autocratic, and despotic as the Emperor. Sounds like Hitler and Stalin.

 

Gandalf seems like an angel. Saruman seems like a fallen angel serving Sauron (Satan). (Afer all, Gandalf and Saruman are immortal Ainur spirits. Sauron is also an Ainur.)

Well you could view Obi-Wan as an angel and Anakin/Vader as the fallen Angel in the same way. Then the fallen Angel, tempts Luke, with all the galaxy has to offer.

"Join me, and we can rule the galaxy..."

Like Satan tempting Jesus in the desert?

 

Star Wars tells the same story as The Lord of the Rings, but in a more modern way, in a kind of society that we can relate to.
That´s really the only difference between the two.

 

Excellent, Slave2! A good thought. I read about that a few years ago.

Interesting, Lars Muul. You could say that Vader has been corrupted but overcomes evil at the last moment and defeats Palpatine to save Luke. A little like Gollum. Gollum is certainly not powerful like Vader, but had been corrupted by the Ring. Yet he destroyed the Ring and himself in The Return of the King. Since Sauron's life force was bound to the Ring, he was destroyed with it. Vader destroyed his power and himself by attacking Palpatine with his Force lightning. But it was to save Luke, and he succeded.

I've been thinking about this for a while. The Ringwraiths of The Lord of the Rings remind me of Palpatine's Empire in Star Wars. The Nazgul or Ringwraiths were once human kings, but the Nine Rings transformed them into Sauron's servants. The Empire is like that for Palpatine. You have to realize what a wraith is. The word wraith comes from the words wroth and wrive. You have to realize that people working for tyrants like Hitler and Stalin were wraiths. The terrorists working for Bin Laden are wraiths. Like the Ringwraiths, they don't know what's good and evil anymore. They do evil like a job. The same is true for Palpatine's Empire. Look at Piett and the other commanders. They are wraiths. They don't care that they are evil. They just do their job for money. That is unless Vader kills them!

I think that Palpatine is an impressive villain. He is both brilliant and terrible evil and despotic. Sauron seems to be far worse. He is an immortal Ainur spirit. (Gandalf and Saruman are Ainur in human from called Istari, or wizards.) Sauron, like Palaptine, is completely evil. All they desire is power.

 

Heh, I wish I knew more about LOTR because this looks like an interesting topic