Force Netherworld/Heaven and Hell

We heard Yoda say in ROTS that Qui-Gon had reached out from the Netherworld of the Force to speak to him. Before him, only a few spoke from the beyond, mostly Jedi.

Now, in the EU, we're told that all go to the Netherworld, whether it be in the Netherworld itself (Heaven), or Chaos (Hell). Other non-Force sensitives were seen in the Netherworld, such as Villa, Denin, Lak Sivrak and more.

However, in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, when Anakin dies, he hears Obi-Wan tell him to let love overtake him so he can become a ghost to speak to his children again. Was the darkness he saw like the tunnel of light we hear about in reality?

If Anakin is like Christ in reality, does the fulfillment of the prophecy save the redeemed, just, innocent, etc and bring them into the Netherworld (Heaven in real theology). If so, do we even get details on what the Netherworld is like, do characters feel tons of wisdom and love all around them as the Light supposedly is?

Furthermore, have we even heard details about Chaos, is it like some of the versions of Hell we hear in reality?

 

The depiction of the afterlife of the Force varies. The Jedi believe it is an awesome Light and Wonderful Experience where you merge with the Force and become a Godlike Being where your consciousness dissolves into the whole of the entirety of the universe.

However, Marvel comics indicates that this is wrong as does the Revenge of the Sith novelization. Instead, it seems to be a misty place of dreams and imagination if our brief glimpse of the place is any indicate.

Bizarrely, it seems to function like the Cave from Star Wars. Your inner rage/hatred/fears come with you. So it's arguable that Chaos doesn't exist but in fact is actually just the inner horrors of Sith and other villains reflected in the Universe of Pure thought around them.

 

What it actually is could be based on an individuals perception of it. Like heaven in this galaxy, it could be subjective.

And if that's not a retcon, I don't know what else is!

 

Our knowledge of Chaos basically just indicates that it's a place of randomness, madness, and loneliness.

So my guess is the isolation does in a lot of Sith.

 

Where did you get that first paragraph from, I had never read it before. I also don't recall that second bit in the ROTS novel. Do you remember which scene it was so I could re-read it?

 

It's a poetic way of analyzing Yoda's words to Anakin in ROTS and the description that RA Salvatore said what Yoda thought happened to Qui Gon in the AOTC novelization.

 

I've always seen the netherworld as more of an analogy personally. I prefer to think people just rejoin with the Force and are reborn again from it one day. The Force has just always reminded me of the gaia concept you get in a lot of the Final Fantasy games just in those its usually represented as a big swirly thing inside a planet.

I assume what the Jedi are able to do is a bit like what Aeris and the Ancients were capable of in FF7 in that where most simply rejoin the Force until they are reborn those Jedi who truly understand the Force and life and death completely are capable of much more. I don't necessarily feel becoming one with the entirety of the universe and the misty dreamworld need be separate concepts, just that the misty dreamworld is how spirits percieve existence while part of the whole.

It links to why I don't see Sith spirits as 'dead' and therefore not in conflict with Lucas's attitude that only Jedi can escape death. I see Sith spirits as not having yet returned to the Force because they're running away from it and in a state of undeath not immortal. To take another analogy, I see Jedi ghosts as 'projections from heaven' whereas I see Sith spirits as remaining behind because they have 'unfinished business'.

Chaos is harder to describe as we know less about it. I assume it is either a kind of 'limbo' for those who have turned away from the Force so much that when they die they refuse to join with it, so their spirits are forever lost. The second understanding I have is that it may have begun as a state of 'limbo' but that as more and more darksiders were lost to the non-existence between life and the Force they eventually all grouped together into their own dark parody of the Force, transforming 'limbo' into Chaos.

 

Then the Sith are just ghosts whereas the Jedi are almost angelic emanations. I just reread Dark Lords of The Sith and Ghost Freedon Nadd literally stalks and dogs Exar into his ascension to Dark Lord. Relentless, he followed Exar Kun to every planet sometimes ahead of him. I couldn't discern if this was an Obi-Wan type ghost or was like dark reflection left by Nadd like a holocron representation. That all the Nadd Ghost could think or discuss or execute was his 'unfinished business'.

 

I've always interpreted Nadd's ghost as anchoring himself in Exar Kun after their meeting on Dxun. This means that when Kun thought Nadd arrived at Yavin IV before him it was actually at the exact same time, and when the ghost used the Force it instead channeled Kun's powers. I believe that Nadd was chained to Omin before this and used the king's last life energies to keep himself "alive" until he could find a new host (Kun).

 

I basically see Nadd as operating the way Voldemort did in the first Harry Potter book when his spirit was bound to Professor Quirrel. Quirrel was kind of his 'link' to remaining among the living. When Quirrel died, he returned to his wraith like state and was forced to find another body or object to anchor his presence to the realm of the living.

So, basically the same as what Charlii said. I always saw Nadd as having anchored himself to Exar Kun just unlike Voldemort it didn't cause a face to grow out the back of his head.

In both cases though, neither Nadd nor Voldemort were 'dead'. They both were running away from heaven/the Force/insert afterlife of choice. I consider Sith spirits to have damned themselves though the same way Voldemort did when he split his soul. Voldemort ended up that freakish baby thing which Dumbledore said would forever be in pain.

I see Sith spirits as having done a similar thing to themselves in that by not allowing themselves to die they have forever damned themselves to a half existence, neither alive nor one with the Force, in 'limbo' which, as I suggested in my previous post, is what I consider 'Chaos' to be. The place spirits go when they don't rejoin with the Force, i.e. the damnation where all the Sith and darksiders swirl around forever alone, forever isolated, forever dead, forever in chaos.

 

Yeah, Palpatine (in Dark Empire) refers to the Dark Side afterlife/Chaos as "the madness beyond death."

 

And just for clarification, Anakin is not a Christ figure. The ONLY thing he even remotely has in common with Christ is his "immaculate conception", which is spotty at best for ole Annie because Palpatine has hinted in Ep III that he or Plageuis may somehow be responsible. Also, Christ didn't turn to the Dark Side and wasn't redeemed by another. Jesus is cool like that.

 

Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Anakin saved the whole galaxy. He's a messiah who turned out to be Judas, but who in the end redeemed himself and fulfilled his divine mission. In his case, the inhabitants of the galaxy are not the sinners and do not need to be spiritually saved, it's him who needs it. And through spiritually saving himself, finding his redemption, Anakin also saves the whole galaxy and it's inhabitants from slavery and physical danger.

 

Well said.

 

yea

 

Anakin had hand wounds.

 

It's not that difficult to understand that Anakin is an INVERTED Christ figure. He's a character who was born to be the Chosen One and the Messiah and FAILED AT IT.

 

Alas, there's no sign of reincarnation in the EU but Kyle Katarn's ghost.

For me, I hesitate on making the Force totally East and not East-West.

 

Initially.

 

Yes, but it's a bit like the Last Temptation of Christ. Yes, he goes back to the cross but we're well aware that the character in the Last Temptation shows the world goes on without him.

 

He didn't really fail at it. The only way to destroy the Sith would be to get on the inside and destroy its followers. Look at it like this, Yoda even said no one could ever fully break away from the Dark Side. Anakin proved that wrong, in a metaphorical way, he 'rose from the dead' in the sense his soul and very humanity was dead when he was Vader. When he redeemed himself, he destroyed the source of evil in the universe.

Even Lucas said Palpatine is the Devil of Star Wars, and Anakin, of course kills him. Anakin, being born from the Force itself, had the highest midicholorians, which, I believe gave him the power to break away from the Dark Side's grip for eternity. No one else had done that. A few who were possessed or had a mind wipe in the case of Revan, did so under different circumstances. Not the same ability.

Let's also remember, that before Anakin came along, not many people knew of the Force ghost technique, and who knows how this affected the afterlife. Could his redemption, which broke the Dark Side's eternal hold and brought balance to the Force, which Lucas said was the destruction of evil itself, have had an unseen impact within the Force? Since, if the Dark Side is defeated, the philosophical and moral chains on the souls seeking redemption, redeemed, the just and innocent, are broken.

Let's take another 'certain point of view' look at this Netherworld debate. In reality, we hear the church say when you die you become one with the Kingdom of Heaven. Now, of course you don't literally BECOME part of it, like a stone in a road in the Kingdom. Could 'joining the Force' be a metaphor for joining the Living Force in a paradise for Light Siders?

 

He didn't really fail at it. The only way to destroy the Sith would be to get on the inside and destroy its followers.

Actually, Lucas backtracked on that by having Mace Windu defeat Palpatine.

Had Anakin struck down Palpatine there then it would have been the end of the Sith.

Anakin proved that wrong, in a metaphorical way, he 'rose from the dead' in the sense his soul and very humanity was dead when he was Vader. When he redeemed himself, he destroyed the source of evil in the universe.

He also spit on his legacy and his destiny while debasing himself in every manner possible.

Lucas is actually very good at subverting the Heroe's Journey, he just usually fulfills it in the end.

 

Didn't Lucas say Palpatine threw the fight so Anakin could come in and buy the 'Jedi are rebelling' lie? I mean, Palpatine killed the other three Masters easily in seconds, and simply falls over when Windu kicks him. Then he shoots lightning while saying he's weak. If he were weak, he couldn't unload a full storm on Mace and talk about how he has unlimited power.

But you're right about Anakin's attitude towards himself as Vader. But, we have to realize that he felt he failed to do what he wanted *protect his family*, and the Jedi being responsible for his condition in the suit. That can be depressing itself. No wonder he was so angry all the time. I probably would be too. Add to the fact that everything he turned for was gone and after seeing what Palpatine can do and being in the suit, he felt he could never be strong enough to destroy him. Like I said, depressing

 

Since when was Anakin like Christ... At all? Besides immaculate conception. (I see now, you guys and your twisty words.)

Still, I think only Jedi achieve that "Oneness" upon entering the Netherworld. All beings go there, it's not surprising, one of their tenets was that all beings are connected to the Force. It makes sense that they ALL go to the same place after death, albeit separated. As for a Jedi exclusive with Godlike status, well it just wouldn't be fair if everyone else got too

 

Lucas explicitly never said that and the novelization confirms Palpatine was actually on the ropes.