Force Nexuses and Wounds in the Force

Here's something I've been wondering about for a while, and seems potentially topical for the near future since in Outcast the Baran Do stated that Jacen was inquisitive about Force nexuses while amongst them after reading over stuff he had previously gathered -- though I suspect this may be another "tassels" thing, except it was only a passing mention and not even a plot point.

Anyway, what differentiates the two? I can think of two dark side nexuses, and they were both created when a powerful dark side practitioner died -- but when many people die, it creates a wound?

I suspected that what differentiates the dark side nexuses from wounds in the Force is what Jacen said in TJK:

"[The dark side is] when we block that flow and turn it to our own ends," Jacen said. "We keep it from others. And when we release it too quickly, we turn it from a nurturing stream into a destructive flood."

However, I'm not entirely sure if I agree with his analogy about the will of the Force based upon how it is described in other sources -- I don't think you can defy the will of the Force, especially if Plagueis created Anakin -- and since Dark Nest seemed to be entirely about making Jacen wrong, I'm not sure if his analogy is even intended to be correct. If it is, however, then that would explain why dark side nexuses are created when a dark sider dies and all their pent up energy is released onto the surrounding environment, staining it.

However, there are at least two non-dark side Force nexuses: the Valley of the Jedi and the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. The valley seems to be unique, despite its origin seemingly sharing many of the characteristics of a wound in the Force, because of the use of the Thought Bomb. And it seems to have strengthened from the time of its creation to the time of Dark Forces 2; otherwise it might have been regarded as significant by Bane or the Jedi. Perhaps the implosion of the Thought Bomb created some sort of gravity equivalent in the Force that drew Force energy toward that location, slowly consolidating it?

Rather interestingly, it seems that the architectural design of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, in addition to the concentration of Jedi Knights residing in it, lent it similar properties to the Valley of the Jedi:

 

Shouldn't that be "Force Nexi"?

 

Dictionary.com says "nexuses" is the plural form. Not that I checked before I made the thread, or anything...

 

Near as I have been able to discover, the difference couldn't have been greater. Dark side nexuses are fairly common occurrences, characterized by a myriad of trite evil changes to the geographic location they inhabit. There is only a single confirmed wound in the Force, however, possibly two. It seems to be an invention used solely for KotOR 2, not seen after, and with very little re-use ability.

All the KotOR dialogue about the significance of the Trayus Academy and its purpose in teaching Revan how to enslave the Republic forces under his command, as well as the properties of the Trayus Assassins, Revan, the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus have led me to this hypothesis:

Something Revan learned at the Trayus Academy taught him how to create a Wound in the Force. The utilization of the Mass Shadow Generator somehow accomplished this, which should by precedent only have created a regular old dark side nexus, but in stead created a big hole of non-Force. At least two beings on Malachor V survived the creation, but established Force Bonds with the wound itself, carrying it and its properties with them wherever they went: the Exile and Nihilus. Properties including the ability to drain will and knowledge, even life force from organic life around them, particularly Force sensitives, and grow stronger from it.

It served as a test drive for Revan, who proceeded to bond with the Wound himself, possibly contributing to his enormous powers, and definitely giving him the ability to convert the Republicans into a loyal Sith army. He also subjected his captured Jedi to the same bonding process, turning them into the Trayus Assassins, capable of drawing upon the power of their Jedi enemies to grow in strength, as well as locate them wherever they hid.

At some point Kreia started her own studies of the Malachor Wound, bonding with it herself (accounting for her speedy growth in the game and Nihilus-like ability to insta-gib the Jedi Council). She saw it for what it was, a spot of non-Force, proof that the Force could be wounded, removed. Desiring this, she sought out other Wounds for study, finding Nihilus and training him to be her weapon against the Force. He betrayed her, though, and in stead of killing the Force to preserve life, he started feeding the hole he was bonded to with that life. She either created or found Sion, also a Wound, only he capable of immortality as a result, presumably studying him as well. He failed her too.

So she went looking for her last hope, the Exile, in hopes that this was the weapon she had been looking for. The only reason I think this might actually have had some merit to it, is the fact that the Exile conveniently was the instigator of the creation of the Wound, which should just have been a dark nexus. Perhaps she had the ability to create them, something Kreia was looking for. While Revan apparently knew how to create a Wound, he was not actually anywhere near it when it was, further pointing in that direction. Which would also explain why Kreia loved the Exile so. Ensue KotOR 2.


Now that Ulicus has provided me with full access to the KotOR dialogue files, I can source a fair deal of this, but I won't pretend there aren't a lot of holes I've had to fill with speculation. Point is, though, the Wound was fairly unique, whereas dark nexuses are something quite different, and more ordinary. On a personal note, I will say that I strongly dislike the whole Wound concept. IMO the GFFA did not need such an additional complication, just for the sake of giving a bunch of one-time characters some special abilities.

 

Well, by my understanding, the "big hole of non-Force" is simply the ultimate pinnacle of a dark side nexus.

If we apply what we learn about the Exile's nature as a wound to the one at Malachor, then the wound is not actually a "big hole of non-Force" at all but, instead, a place where the Force is so powerful and intense (so "bunged up", to link back to Barringer's first post) that it is deafening to the point of silence.

Less of a gap and more of a scar, really.

 

Possible, but counter-intuitive IMO. Nihilus hunger, the hunger of the Trayus assassins, which they learned from the Exile. The power of Nihilus, Visas and the assassins to seek out Force sensitives to feed on them. The insta-gib Force Drain the dark Exile, Kreia, and Nihilus knows. The power drain of the assassins. Sion was pretty good with Drain too IIRC. How will is drained from the companions of the Exile. How life is drained from those of Nihilus. How knowledge is drained from the Exile's enemies. It all points towards a hole that needs to be filled, not a spot of very much/very intense corrupted energy.

Besides, do we really think this was the biggest dark nexus ever? That the destruction of Alderaan or either Death Star, or the devastation of Jebble or Ambria truly did not cause more death and pain than the killing of the remnants of two armies, in an attack that demonstrably did not even kill everyone subjected to it? That seems unlikely.

Not to mention how Revan needed to "know" how to create such places, and the power inherent to them. As we know, dark nexuses can have a lot of different properties, while Revan needed exactly the sort of power the Exile has to aid his war of conversion. Was he just really lucky about what sort of dark nexus he got?

No. I think it far more likely there was something special about how the Wound was created. And that the Exile was crucial to it somehow. Else Kreia would just have spent her time reading Trayus lore until she too knew how the create Wounds, rather than follow these silly kids around.

We don't need it to be a powerful dark nexus to explain that. It runs completely contrary to my understanding of the scenario, in fact. AFAIK the Exile was really good at bonding, and had bonded with all of her troops on Malachor's surface. When they died, that was the deafening event that caused her to cut herself off to survive. Had nothing to do with the Wound per se, as I assume any old event of mass death could have accomplished the same.

If Obi can get a headache from Alderaan's destruction Yoda knows how far away, then a super-bonder on its surface should damn near be killed by comparison.

 

Or something of immense "Force mass" towards which the energy inexorably gravitates. It's more akin to a black hole of Force than it is a big hole of "non-Force". A typical dark side nexus would be akin to a star.

That we know of? Yes, frankly.

I absolutely think there was more to it than simply "death on a grand scale", otherwise of course Alderaan would be some huge dark side nexus... which it isn't, apparantly.

That goes without saying. There was something special about how Anakin Skywalker was born, too, but he's still the apex of Force sensitivity as opposed to something else entirely.

Fair enough, though I'm not using the Malachor wound to explain the Exile but rather the Exile to explain the wound.

It has to be kept in mind that the Exile's "choice" to cut herself off from the Force, the one that Kreia adores so much, was made on a subconscious level, too. The majority of her questing throughout the game is about her finding out what the hell happened, after all, and Kreia even feeds her a line about the Jedi Council stripping her of her powers. She withdrew from the Force because the destruction wrought by the Mass Shadow Generator, and her own links to those she killed, transformed her connection/s to it into a scary deafening "nothingness". After all, she couldn't "really" have been cut off from the Force, because she was still perfectly capable of forming new bonds in the Force and hearing it, once again, through them.

Which I guess makes her potentially more powerful than even those of the Skywalker line.

I tend to suspect -- as you do -- that the Exile was in some way necessary (beyond simply giving the ord

 

Looking through the dialogue file you got me, I had one revelation after another:

The Exile did do it, with the vital ingredient added to the dark nexus likely being her Force severance. The CG does say she was really good at severance too, so that would make sense.

..and this might explain how. If the Exile's bond with the dead army did not go away, perhaps it it what transformed the dark nexus into a Wound.

This obviously refers to Nihilus, which has to mean he created additional Wounds when he struck, just as Kreia wanted him to. And since he too knew Sever Force (seeing as he severed Kreia), that could make sense.

Supports the big hole of non-Force.

These guys had seen Katarr go to hell. For them to describe Malachor as the first, with another one to come, makes it unlikely the Wound was just a really strong dark nexus.

...but then there is this, which makes it seem like all dark nexuses are Wounds. Which seems to run contrary to everything else. Not that I see that as much of a problem, as the Wound obviously needed a great event of dark Force to exist at all, just not that alone.

 

...and just to add some credence to my hypothesis:

Something else interesting:

I'm thinking this might be the big difference. A regular dark nexus (referred to as a "wound" in the game) will be neutralized over time, whereas a Malachor-style Sever Force Wound will never close. This fits with what the Dark Side Sourcebook tells us of Dark Side sites, which are stated to last for a long time (implying they are not permanent).

..but no. Even the Malachor wound could mend itself. I wish this game would stop contradicting itself.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps it was just a regular old dark nexus. I just don't see how that meshes with its uniqueness in so many ways, even in the minds of so many characters. Could the distinction be how it can be bonded with by people, and carried with them for power? By contrast, the DS sourcebook says regular dark sites only grant power for a short while after exposure.


These dialogue files are awesome! A pity I have to rely on context and memory for who says what...

 

Oh, she was cut off, alright. She just got it back through a huge cop-out on part of the CG:

To be fair, I never even considered that a huge mass of dark side might conceivably account for the Wound powers through an almost magnetic pull. I like that, as I tend to subscribe to the notion of whoever said the dark side was an excess of energy. I never quite managed to reconcile something as excessive as a dark nexus being turned into non-Force. Which I guess is why the distinction between nexus an Wound is so important to me.

But if you are right, and per the quotes above, the difference is only that it can be linked to people, why would Kreia see a Wound as a way to kill the Force? An excess of energy, that will resolve itself over time, will kill the Force? That is like saying the dark side that is there already will in excessive amounts kill the Force. The non-Force hypothesis at least gave some sense to Kreia's plan, and the Council's worry about her "second Wound", as well as the Exile showing them "the death of the Force".


Bleh. I always had the feeling playing that game, that the "Wound-facts" were all over the place.

 

Some of them aren't even in the game anymore, either. Which can get really confusing, because Kreia's voice actress -- in particular -- did such a good job that you can hear anything that was intended for her character in that voice.

*waves* Though it's more that the dark side is the affect of that excess of energy. It's only "bad" because of how it relates to living beings.

I've not convinced that "Kreia's plan" is Kreia's plan.

"In killing me, here, you have rewarded me more than you know"

There seems to be something else going on.

To be honest, a part of me interprets Kreia as a meta-character railing at the fourth wall. After all, the Exile's nature -- on a meta level -- was all about her levelling up and gaining experience points from kills. As such, Kreia's goal to bring an end to the "will of the Force" is accomplished when the Exile slays her at Malachor V... because that is the game's final confrontation. That's where the machinations of the plot end. Other games, other media, will never be that game or that plot. The rest is silence.

That said, a lot of KotOR II, apparantly, was Avellone offering a critique of the Star Wars setting... and he seems to be of the mind that getting rid of predestination and the like (the "destroy the Force" thing) was, indeed, Kreia's goal.

Interview here.

I dunno.

They kind of were, honestly. I don't normally think about it overmuch... but I'll leave you with this:

Kreia: There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.

For me, the wound at Malachor V will always be an example of a dark side nexus turned up to eleven.

 

Ah...good on you, but I was actually talking about an IU character. Luke, maybe. It is purely second hand, so I don't know for sure who or where from.

Uch. I hope not. It would frankly be awful if all the philosophy Kreia has added to the Force were intended as a running commentary on the game being played from some halfway OOU perspective.

I guess, with our recent revelations, Revan could have learned what he knew from the Emperor, since that quote at the same time speaks of a place in the galaxy, yet implies there are/have been more of them elsewhere or at other times ("such places"). That way, Kreia would have a legitimate reason to follow her wounds around in stead of reading Trayus lore. There would be none of the kind she needed.

But yes, as it stands, I don't see a good way to resolve exactly what the Malachor Wound was, and how unique it may or may not have been.

 

Ah, okay. How embarrassing. I can recall arguing the position fervantly, so I assumed you were talking about that. N/M. If you ever find that IU character, though, hit me up.

Well it can work on both levels.

 

Doesn't that viewpoint arise from Jacen in TJK, which I alluded to in the OP?

Jacen chuckled. "Okay. The Force isn't a deity, Tenel Ka. It's not self-conscious, and it isn't capable of caring what happens to us. It's a flow. Its only will is to remove that which blocks it. When we facilitate that flow, when we allow it to run through us to others, we're in harmony. We're using the light side."

"And the dark side?"

"Is when we block that flow and turn it to our own ends," Jacen said. "We keep it from others. And when we release it too quickly, we turn it from a nurturing stream into a destructive flood."

"Didn't Vergere teach that our intentions make an act dark or light?" Tenel Ka asked.

"She did," Jacen admitted. "And she was telling the truth, from a certain point of view. If you have good intentions, you tend to let the Force flow through you. If not, you tend to bottle it up inside, and it starts eating away at your good looks."
The Joiner King pg 257-258

 

That may be what MRN's referring to. It's not something I remembered or recalled when advocating the "dark side = affect of excessive amount of Force energy", whenever it was, however.

 

I don't think that was it, no. Seems to be based on the same line of thinking, though.

My gut tells me it was Luke in some early Zahn book, but that is all I got.

 

What you're thinking of is probably in Vision of the Future:

Mara smiled back. "Pretty obvious, isn?t it, once you see it. The Force isn?t just about power, like most non-Jedi think. It?s also about guidance: everything from those impressive future visions to the more subtle realtime warnings I sometimes think of as a danger sense. Trouble is, the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you?re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity."

"Yes," Luke murmured, so many puzzles suddenly coming clear. He had often wondered how it was he could rebuild Darth Vader?s personal fortress while Master Yoda had become winded doing something as relatively simple as lifting an X-wing from the Dagobah swamp. Clearly, Yoda had understood the choices far better than his upstart pupil.

And even in the short time since Luke had decided to try that same choice he?d already
seen glimpses of why Yoda had chosen that path. Subtle bits of guidance, sometimes
occurring as little more than vague and almost subconscious feelings, had been showing up more and more: protecting him from a quick capture back at the Cavrilhu Pirates? asteroid base, or quietly prompting him to accept Child Of Winds?s assistance, which had led directly to this cavern and the pride-motivated aid of the Qom Jha. "I was on Iphigin a couple of months ago helping Han with some negotiations," he said. "The Diamala at the talks told Han that Jedi who used as much power as I did always ended up slipping over to the dark side."

"They may be right," Mara agreed. "Not all Dark Jedi come from botched training, you know. Some of them slip into it all by themselves."

It's on page 169 of the hardcover edition. Zahn reiterates it in Survivor's Quest, and Stackpole has Mara discuss it with Anakin Solo in Dark Tide I: Onslaught while they're on Dantooine.

I'm not particularly a fan of Mara Jade lecturing Luke Skywalker on the Force, especially when it's so heavy handed and basically having her be an author mouthpiece. I liked the Hand of Thrawn books, but could have done without hearing Zahn's opinion of the other Bantam novels in them.

 

I didn't notice Yoda being winded.

 

Man, Barringer, this has sure given me something to chew on. I had thought that negative emotions simply produced dark energy, but if all it does is bottle neutral energy up until it turns unhealthy, that leads to so many logical conclusions. It indirectly proves Ulicus right when he said normal lightside use means the user simply gets more results with the same energy. And it means Bane actually had a point in wanting to limit the number of Sith getting to use the dark side.

Worst of all, it actually gives the CW cartoon and TFU some sorely needed justification. Yoda and Mace could simply have bottled up some crazy amounts of energy just for the sake of the battles at hand, and probably thread dangerously close to what they shouldn't have because of it. As for Marek, that little murglak, he could simply be the guy who had a sick max limit, which he pushed further than any of his opponents. It is still a little wacky how certain mediums see all their characters push further than everyone else does rest of the time, but by tying the dark side to doing so, it is a surprisingly elegant solution to what must OOU be blamed on the needs on the medium. I am impressed.

 

However, from another thread:

. . .

In this case a correlation is being drawn between two concepts, without there being an assumption of equivalence between them. It is essentially analogous to the (intent-free) situation sketched by the Annotated Screenplays material regarding the dark side in TESB.

 

Wow, talk about taking stuff out of context to prove a completely off topic point. Since when was this an action vs intention debate?

 

interesting topic..

in my pov,...

THE FORCE is created by life and bound to it. There is NO Force without life and NO Life without the Force. Thus, if you destroy one you destroy the other.

In real life I believe in reincarnation and more which is not very present in Star Wars yet sadly. Thus I'd say death does not diminish the Force in that it ends life infinitely but rather transforms lifeenergy into universal energy still part of the Force (aka afterlife, netherworld, being one with the Force, etc.)

I believe there can be NO non-force. Thus I have another explanation for nexi and wounds, etc. more on that later, gotta go

 

Darth_Dreadwar is a wound in the Force.

 

now I can continue my above post... but be warned I approach this topic from a philosophical point and less one of quotes and canon proof. That might follow later after I laid out my case here.


WHAT IS A FORCE WOUND?

options:
-Anti-Force/Non-Force akin to a place where it does not exist
-Place of the Dark Side / DS Nexus instead of Light Side (however heavy into darkness it might be can differ), if one considers the Light as natural and the dark as aberration
-something that does not exist de facto but exists for those believing in it; as in the Force can not have a wound/hole etc. (like Ysalamiri only dampen it, not make it go away) but what is considered a wound or nexus is a place where an accumulation of Force energy for whatever purpose tainted that place with a special feel (Dark/Light/empty/etc.) that depending on the skill level of the being can be felt more or less severe (non-forcesensitives that have a too low midichlorian count would not feel a thing in the dagobah cave f.e. whereas Luke certainly does feel a lot... less powerful Jedi would maybe have less real or less powerful encounters/visions)
-something where the Force is not recognisable but present akin to a different spectrum of the Force (think Vong, think forcestripping, think altering the frequency so that you can no longer detect it with your to one frequency attuned forcesenses. akin to callista, ulic quel droma etc. and all who are within the force but seem to be cut off only)

NEXI:

If one follows earthian geomatic and other esoteric wisdom, laylines, chakras, etc. and more turns up. there are places better suited for certain things than others. like lifelines they intersect etc.

similiar it is with Nexi. the Force is everywhere and depending on skill you can unleash its potential without any limits by midichlorian counts or else (hello Starkiller ) but as the Jedi Temple Force Nexus, and others across the galaxy, I believe the GFFA has these lines and places where they cross as well, including natural places with higher energies, easier access or whatever etc. like on Earth they there, too serve a purpose and are not random. here, too, churches and castles and other stuff had been built in these places for certain reasons.


my main point is many esoteric real world stuff mirrors the Force and into the GFFA making things easier to understand since these are what authors base them on.

 

It seems that in order to define a Wound in the Force, there has also been some necessity to define what people's perceptions of the force are: Jacen to Tenel-Ka and Mara's statements as well.
And the way I see it there seem to be two differing theories on what constitute a Force Wound: a) A Void b) A compression of dark energy to such an extent that it is "deafening".
I feel that the 2nd option is quite viable as well. If one takes the Universe, it is primarily comprised of the interstellar medium which is nearly devoid of matter and then lumps of matter (stars, galaxies, etc). If Nexuses were as normal stars and a Wound was a black hole, it would indeed be a "Force Nexus pushed to eleven".
And what is more, its nature would differ from a Nexus and yet possess some similarities to it. (Both stars and black holes display gravitational pull; yet black holes do not emit light while normal stars do)
Again, Ulicus and DarthMRN must be thanked for the wide range of quotes and subsequent arguments put forth. Personally, I feel that not all of the dialogue can be taken literally since the sources contradict and sometimes they don't make sense. For example, Nihilus' kills propagating more Wounds.
It is my opinion that to understand Wounds we need to reconstruct what really happened at Malachor V. I agree with DarthMRN on most aspects. Some of my differenced are:
1) Revan is a natural leader, master strategist, exceptionally strong in the Force, etc but he isn't confirmed to be unusual in his Force Bonding abilities. I believe that he wished to wipe out the Mandalorians and create a dark side Nexus but I believe that he did not predict the creation of a Wound.
2) Furthermore, I don't believe that the Exile and Nihilus bonded with the Wound. I see them as two aspects of the Wound itself; to go further I'd say that Nihilus was the Exile's doppelganger. When our Exile (being too noble to succumb to the Dark Side) cut herself off from the Force, I believe that act may have had its repercussion - thus creating some kind of phantom entity that coalesced into Nihilus. Thus, in defeating Nihilus she may have allowed her two halves to become whole again. It seems to me that the Wound is not an abstract entity but the Exile herself who is the Wound.
How did she make herself one? They key has to lie in her two gifts: severing one from the Force and Force Bonding. To quote the Exile and DarthMRN - "it is what I did with such pain that caused the wound"

And finally, if one imagines the Wound to be some sort of a Black Hole, it would have the power to drain everything from people the same way a black hole sucks everything in through its intense gravity. One must remember that the Black Hole is not a void (devoid of gravity, anti-gravity, etc) but closer to an excess of energy. (intense gravitational pull) Thus, the Wound can be seen as an excess concentration of the Force which would be warped. This would also explain quite a number of the points that the non-Force thing explains. Interestingly, since the area (and the entropy) of the event horizon of the black hole is dependent on the mass, new matter sucked in would increase the size of the event horizon.
Perhaps in a similar fasion, with every kill that the Exile makes, her presence "grows". Of course, the whole analogy is being pushed too far, but it's mainly to throw out some new ideas