force powers comment from jedi academy...

i have been in a couple of discussions on the subject of good and bad in relation to force powers here on these boards so i thought i would share this...

when you begin training uder kyle at the academy he informs you that force abilities themselves are not inherently good or bad. its in the user...

i don't have the actual quote but that was basically it. of course that statement is most likely there to serve as a game play mechanic but i thought it kinda supports those of us that think powers are neutral in the force, that the user of the ability decides whether or not its good or bad...

 

Wow Kyle Katarn is from the Vergere school of thought, and that in itself is a dangerous thing to teach his students... .

Considering the amount of times that Kyle has used the darkside, and nearly-fallen many times, as well as fallen once, I wouldn't trust his words all that much. He is a poor authority on the matter.

"In Jedi Outcast, is Kyle on the light or dark side of the force?

Kyle lacks the formal discipline and training of a true Jedi Knight, which results in his continual struggle between the light and dark side."-lucasarts.com

 

Yeah, he's probably the only one teaching that way of using the Force... And did you notice how he laughs like a madman when he's fighting ???

Anyway, while I think the Vergere school of thought is better than the manichean Old Republic Jedi school of thought, at the time of JA, this is definitely not the dominant way of teaching.

 

Course it wasn't actual an original school of thought created by vergere, the idea had existed for a very long time, including a character during TOTJ era, in a short story vignette in the TOTJ companion. She ended up failing for it as well, becoming trapped by her beliefs.

While I can agree that yes there is choice created by the person's own internal character's negative and positive emotions. The idea that there is no external sides to the force is wrong, as there are infact two sides to the force as is established in all the other sourcebooks, and while the external darkside itself isn't inherently evil(DESB) in its natural form, its still a very much physically corrupting energy that puts a strain on the user, and represents death and destruction, etc. Death and destruction, etc might be part of natural order of things in the universe, but it isn't something for a Jedi to decide to spread. For a Jedi to decide to use powers that represent death, and destruction in severly painful ways, etc, is for him to become judge, jury, and executioner in one, and that in itself is dark. Thus its the individual dark powers themselves that are dark, and corrupting to the user, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

 

Yeah, but then what's the difference between slicing Stormtroopers that are attacking you, or frying them with Force lightning ? You're still dealing death, maybe one way is just more effective than the other. All the Stormies are gonna end up dead either way.

However, it might be true that using DS powers might entice the Force user to use them more often, then be tempted to use them when they should not be, thus effectively turning to the DS.

And it is my belief - and unless I am mistaken I don't think it has been officially contradicted yet - that both the old-fashioned light/dark and Vergere's views of the Force can co-exist. Typically, there is no side for the user, however, depending on how the Force is used, it creates a Force "residue" that can either soothe or corrupt, symbolically light and dark side, but in the end it's just a question of morals.

(Oh, and BTW, I knew Vergere didn't come up with her school of thought on her own. )

 

"Yeah, but then what's the difference between slicing Stormtroopers that are attacking you, or frying them with Force lightning ? You're still dealing death, maybe one way is just more effective than the other. All the Stormies are gonna end up dead either way."

One you are drawing on dark corruptive forces and energies of the force. With just the lightsaber you are not. It analogous to using a cannon to kill a fly, when a fly swatter would work just as well.

Oh, and darkside energies from the force are "addictive" according to DESB, which means the user will be more likely to use it again.

 

I agree it's overkill, but the result is essentially the same : you've taken a life. It's true though that with the ease of the DS way, you'll be tempted to use it more often, and not necessarily for "good".

EDIT : Well, we sort of agree then, don't we ?

 

Counterpoint, Kyle KNOWS the Dark Side exists.

He's possibly simply teaching that the powers drawn from the Light can be used for war.

 

Except, that killing with a lightsaber doesn't use corruptive dark energies.

Killing with a lightsaber alone is not part of the Dark Side of the Force, and does not add to the darkside of the force, and does not have the addictive properties of the dark side of the force because darkside of the force was not used.

Using lightning on the other hand is a use of the darkside powers.

It's simply not killing that is darkside, but energy itself that is. Darkside is what causes corruptive natural death in the galaxy, such as old age, cancer, etc. It doesn't represent every form of death, such as weapons for example. A lightsaber causes plasma energy type death, where as lightning uses darkside energy the same kind of energy that causes natural deaths, but is distilled into one of its most focused forms, which excellerats death, and cancer-like effects to the bones, causing death in an excruciatingly painful and torturous form.

Also you forget a simple thing that Jedi avoid killing except in a last resort. They'd rather disable rather than kill. It's only in the need of self defense, they don't just go out and decide to kill.

"Counterpoint, Kyle KNOWS the Dark Side exists."

This is true. He states as much in the novels, and earlier games.

 

Lightsaber Combat is a neutral Force power. It's neither good nor evil and can be used by both sides of the Force. What it does is allow the user to use their lightsaber without killing themselves. It also allows them to deflect blaster bolts. Using it to kill is using the Force indirectly to kill. Anyone can use a lightsaber to kill, as long as their careful. Using Force Lightning to kill, by contrast, is using the Force directly to kill.

 

Yeah, but then what's the difference between slicing Stormtroopers that are attacking you, or frying them with Force lightning ? You're still dealing death, maybe one way is just more effective than the other. All the Stormies are gonna end up dead either way

There is some difference. It's like shooting someone on land from a boat vs stabbing them in the lake. In the second case, their blood will taint the water and make it unsafe to drink from. It will require cleansing first, though not literally in the same way as a Jedi might cleanse their soul after using Dark powers.

 

So the dark side, in it's natural form, is basically decay, while the lightside is growth? Sort of a death/life thing?

 

Well its more something like this.

*A man shoots another man with a gun*

The gun is neutral, it doesn't care.

vs.

"I CALL UPON YOU DARK LORDS OF EVIL TO FILL ME WITH YOUR BLACK MIGHT AND REMAKE ME IN YOUR IMAGE THAT THIS HOLY MAN MIGHT BE TURNED TO ASHES!"

*commence rant as lighting flies from his hand*

 

So the power itself has intent, independent of the intent of the user? So, if you try to use the dark side for good, it will inevitably corrupt the results?

 

I know that the saber is neutral, and I'm supposing the Jedi kills the enemy. While you clearly don't kill some of your enemies (chopped-off hands), I'm quite sure most of the saber blows end up in death.

In that last case, I say both ways end up with the same result, that is death. One way is addictive, the other not (or it could be, but it would require a rather twisted ego to begin with - you know, like a Jedi serial-killer...).

Kyle, and now his students are dealing death whereas most Jedi avoid killing. Does that make them bad and "unworthy" to be Jedi ? Apparently not, since they're still working at Luke's Academy.

Now, the question is more : how many enemies did Kyle and his students effectively kill, opposed to how many they just disabled.

 

Except again, killing with a lightsaber doesn't draw upon the physically corrupting(decay) effects of the Dark Side. It's like saint of killers described it, darkside is closer to natural decay. But when you are distilling it into focused forms you are making an unatural use of it not only premoting death and decay in your opponent but upon yourself as well, as its flowing through your body.

Killing with a lightsaber does not draw upon the darkside(agent of decay). Its a neutral ability. It's not much different than shooting someone with a blaster, though a Jedi will use neutral powers such as enhanced agility and skill to help wield the lightsaber. But those powers are not addictive, nor do they promote decay, in others, and self. But just like killing with a blaster is not force related, the actual energy beam of the lightsaber is not force related as well, anyone can use it, see Han Solo for instance, so neither is the death it inflicts, if death ends up being required. In those cases its simply another topic, the one dealing with the person's internal character on if the death was justified or not. But it isn't use of the darkside energies, and those deaths are not caused by the darkside, but rather by manufactured technology.

The darkside is not representative of every form of death, only the types of death that are caused by decay, rot, and slow natural death. It can be focused to speed up decay, rot, and death, but its still the same form of energy.

Other forms of death are not that kind of energy, and are based on manufactured technology of some sort(blasters, lightsabers, knives, slug throwers, grenades, etc).

In life natural death caused by the darkside energy is inevitable, but it occurs naturally after extended periods of time. Using that agent of decay that leads to death in focused form on the other hand is very unatural use of a natural energy, that corrupts the users physically, and with the addiction mentally, as well as the ones it is used on (in an accelerated rate). It's the unatural use of dark energy, that is evil, not exactly the dark part of the force itself(dark empire sourcebook).

Not only that, but it requires hatred and/or anger to summon those darkside energies according to the DESB. Someone may repress their unconcious emotions(not even knowing they have them), but those emotions are still there, if they are actually able to use the power, and those repressed emotions are as dangerous to the person, and probably more dangerous, than if he was admittingly using those required emotions to draw upon the darkside.

 

You know, it's funny. I agree with what you say. We're both basically saying the same thing, aren't we ? So why do we continue arguing ?

If you don't agree with me on some point, please tell me which one exactly, because right now I'm quite confused about the reasons of this argument.

 

Well you appeared to think that all forms of death are caused by the Dark Side. I was pointing out that not all forms of death are caused by the Dark Side.

Some things are simply death caused by technology or tool of some sort, rather than the dark energies of the force itself.

Maybe I confused you in some way with an earlier post, if so forgive me.

 

Xizor -- the disagreement stems from the fact that you believe "the end justifies the means" if you think that there's no difference between a Jedi killing with a lightsaber and a Jedi killing with Force Lightning.

The difference there is that one (lightsaber) has no connection to the Force and is merely a tool killing someone and another (Force Lightning) requires a) usage of the Force, b) intentional twisting and corruption of the Force and c) using the Force solely for attack.

 

Also what dp4m said, .

 

Because Dark side powers can only be called upon using negative emotions. You use hate and rage to call on Force lightning. You can't call on it if you're in a peaceful state of mind.

This taints the energy and corrupts the user.

That's the difference

 

Indeed.

 

Another example is the Emperor Force storms. Those were called upon from a place within the Emperor that held imense rage and hatred. That much bad mojo flowing through your body can't be good for you.

In that state of mind, power can be corrupting. Dark Side powers encourage the user to perpetually remain in a negative state of mind in order to get that power.

While hypothetically it would be possible to use the Dark side and still be good, the control andd discipline required make it nearly impossible. It's better to never mess with the Dark Side in the first place. How can you ever be in control if you have to be constantly hating, and angry?

To me a Jedi who claims to be able to control the Dark Side, is akin to Church officials of medieval times that claimed to practice demonic magicks for goodness sake. Silly.

 

Saint...
"So the power itself has intent, independent of the intent of the user? So, if you try to use the dark side for good, it will inevitably corrupt the results?"

I would say that's a very accurate statement.

 

Well, if say you need the flavor of almonds in your food. Would you use almond extract(lightside), or would you use arsenic(darkside)?

Just because arsenic tastes like almonds does that make it all right to use to flavor food? Was that purpose for which arsenic had been designed? Was your intent to flavor food like almonds with arsenic a good substitution, even though it will have corrupting results on the food, which spreads to you and anyone else that eats it?

Just because they taste and smell the same are they the same? Noooo....
So it is similar with the use of darkside powers, and lightside powers.