Force Sense - What can it really do? (spoilers for aired episodes)

In this thread I intend to discuss the use of so-called Force Sense to detect and identify individuals. Other aspects like sensing danger or the future are a different story, and not much cause for disagreement.

Anyway, it's pretty clear that one of the "plot holes" most often being pointed out in the Clone Wars series is the Jedi inability to sense someone's presence is several different situations. With the first two second season episodes it became abundantly clear that we can no longer judge each instance of a failed use of Force Sense as a writer's mistake, rather it seems that it is an overall direction of the show that Force Sense is simply not all that it's been cracked up to be in other sources. Considering that, especially now into the 2nd season, George Lucas has his hands firmly on the reigns of this show, we kinda have to accept that the Maker himself doesn't consider Force Sense to be the radar that we were led to believe.

So let's see, in the series, a few examples of uses of Force Sense or lack thereof we have seen, off the top of my head:

CW Film - Anakin doesn't sense Ahsoka fighting the Magnaguards nearby and drives right by her. Dooku doesn't sense Anakin has a rock in his backpack, not a baby Hutt.
Shadow of Malevolence - Ahsoka senses Plo Koon is alive and apparently pilots straight to him (although he seemed to be broadcasting his location with the Force). Dooku doesn't sense the Jedi in the powered-down Twilight right next to his ship.
Dooku Captured - Obi-Wan finds Anakin in his cell, after opening a wrong one first. Dooku doesn't sense the Jedi coming for him (though maybe he did and chose to sit around). Ahsoka finds Anakin and Obi-Wan trapped in the cave (though she might have used sensors or locators to do it)
The Gungan General - Dooku doesn't sense that there is a group of pirates waiting behind the door.
Holocron Heist - Nobody can track Cad Bane's movement inside the temple. Ahsoka and Jocasta fail to sense Cato's secret identity.
Cargo of Doom - Anakin and Ahsoka fail to sniff out an intruder among the troops.

According to several books and RPG material, Jedi should be able to detect and identify individuals better than a military radar. They could even know that someone is in a specific planet and track them down. They can easily see through any disguise and know when someone approaches, or if an adjacent room is empty or not. Now the question is, is that G-cannon? Do the movies support this vision, or is that something that was gradually expanded in the EU to the point where we accept it as the way it's always been?

Let's look at the films, again just off the top of my head:

A New Hope - Obi-Wan doesn't sense the approaching Sand People (it's Artoo's sensors that pick them up), Vader senses Obi-Wan's presence (but very vaguely, he doesn't track him down to the Falcon's smuggling compartment).
The Empire Strikes Back - Leia finds Luke hanging under Cloud City (again, he was broadcasting his presence).
Return of the Jedi - Vader detects Luke in the shuttle. Vader can't find Luke when he's hiding during their duel.
The Phantom Menace - Qui-Gon seems to sense Darth Maul's approach in the desert (though he could have just heard his speeder).
Attack of the Clones - Anakin locates the exact tent where Shmi is being kept. Anakin doesn't sense the presence of the hundreds of geonosians hiding in the walls.
Revenge of the Sith - Anakin doesn't sense Obi-Wan in Padmé's ship on Mustafar.

So, looking objectively at this, it seems to me that Force Sense was never intended to be as powerful as it's been depicted later on, and as people are expecting to see in the Clone Wars. The only film examples of real radar sense occur among direct blood relations, a connection that we know to be very strong.

My point is that maybe we should lay back on demanding that TCW show the Jedi using the Force to locate and identify the enemies promptly. It seems that if we saw ANH for the first time today, there would be lots of

 

This is a good thing to bring up. I suggest bumpage if the Force Sense debate arrives again. XD

You covered a lot of in-show ground and examples, so I don't have much more to add, but I just thought I'd throw in my two cents...well, it's more than two cents, but that's the way the idiom goes, not my fault.

Here's what we know, as pointed out by Gry...
-It's not a precise radar sense
-It seems to function especially well with bonded characters
-It doesn't pinpoint a whatever is causing it, just lets you know it's there

So I had some thoughts. Hopefully they might offer reasonable explanations. True, Gry's

What does it do?
Force Sense, in my view, definitely gives the Jedi a form of extrasensory perception in various forms, such as combat, emotions, or disturbances. So far, the most reliable one seems to be the sort based around instinct or immediate situations, such as knowing just where to place a lightsaber or how to swing it, whereas Yoda's brand of 'Detect Character' seems to flicker on and off.

As defined by the Wook, Force Sense enhances the senses of the Jedi, and sensing danger would often come naturally. If we take The Force as a sixth sense, it could be an actual physical perception to threats in addition to the more mythic warnings and instincts.

Sensing FEELINGS, apparently, falls under the domain of telepathy, as demonstrated by Luminara in Cloak of Darkness. So far, the description of telepathy doesn't mean mind-speaking, but rather, sensing emotions and impressions, another application of Force Sense.


So why isn't it working?
Well, the most obvious reason, outside the universe, is for the plot to progress.
The OTHER obvious reason is that the Sith have weakened the Jedi's sensory abilities to the point we're at now.

The most commonly acceptable sign of this is Palpatine's ability to be right next to Jedi without arousing much suspicion. I say much because some Jedi think there's something weird about him, others state that the Dark Side surrounds him, and of course, there's the whole 'give me more power' deal.

I think that the show is expanding on some of the new limitations of Force Sense, which can all be readily explained by the Dark Side. As things stand, here are some loopholes that seem to exist currently...

Degree: Perhaps there's a scale of how much 'Force Sense' is needed to detect something. To my understanding, the lowest levels would be environmental hazards and immediate combat (blaster bolts headed for you and all that). The larger scale would probably be sensing stuff on planets (Alderaan's one example...in the Genndy series, Yoda can even sense Luminara and her Padawan on Ilum. Then again, the planet's strong connection to Jedi could have had an affect). So while obviously there's some degree of ability left for immediate threats, I guess the Dark Side has blocked out their more advanced ranges of sensing.

Range: This one's pretty straightforward. The farther away it is, the more obscure it is. Like it's easier to reach something closer until you get up and walk towards the farther thing.

Intent: Right now, by the looks of things, one of the few ways Jedi can respond to threats effectively seems to be if they can sense intent behind it. This is a very ambiguous area, certainly, given Palpatine's plan spans the whole galaxy, but maybe it only offers a 'feeling' or 'hunch'. Something of note: A Spider-Man comic shows a hired killer being able to elude his spider-sense until the VERY LAST MINUTE. He claimed his secret was 'sleeping on the job'. A neat bit of 'supporting' evidence, given Garth's fondness for comparing Force Sense to the Spider variety. XD

Alignment: So why are the Jedi able to help each other out in a bind? Well, one reason is that perhaps it's easier to sense someone on the Light side of the Force. There are any number of metaphysical babble you can theorise to explain it, but i

 

Well, we've got a bunch of contradictory information.


For AOTC, might as well add that Dooku didn't sense Obi-Wan spying on Geonosis, didn't sense (debatable) Mace Windu coming, didn't sense Yoda's arrival in the hangar.


But Our Heroes both sense that Padme is in danger at the beginning of AOTC.

Yet haven't we been taught that Jedi/Sith can sense someone that is Force sensitive? Or is it only when they are using the Force? I.e., "broadcasting" it, as Gry stated.

Even Yoda says "the Dark Side I sense in you, Dooku" after he uses Sith Lightning.

Did Palpatine really have to hide himself in the Force, or did he just have to be careful never to use it around the Jedi? In ANH, did Vader even sense Kenobi at all before he used the Force on the Stormtroopers?

Seems like Palps didn't sense Yoda coming to the Senate building in ROTS either.

Even Yoda in HH senses really a disturbance in the Force - which, IMHO, is more of the foresight/precog/prognostication abilities. We know for sure they have been affected by the Dark Side.

 

Yes, but notice that they didn't sense the presence of the Kouhun when the slugs first entered Padmé's room. They only sensed she was in danger when she was just about to be bitten, the imminence of her death causing some ripples in the Force or something.

I'd say that's a different thing as well. Using the Force must create some ripples in the Force that other Jedi can pick up as well. The moment Luke concentrates in the Force to fire the torpedo, Vader senses he's powerful in the Force. I'd say Palpatine had to be very careful about how he used the Force in the vicinity of the Jedi, or they would sense something about him.

Yes, he did. As soon as he entered the hangar he muttered something about sensing a presence. But it was so vague he did nothing about it.

Yes, I think sensing disturbances and visions of the future is quite different from sensing someone's presence.

 

Anakin doesn't sense the presence of the hundreds of geonosians hiding in the walls.

It's true that he doesn't notice them until they start moving and he sees them, yet he could have sensed them before but not known they were right there. They were going into the hive and so Anakin could have sensed the many lifeforms inside, yet just did not specifically sense that they were right there hiding in the walls. The great number of Geonosians could have caused him to sense the whole lot of them, which meant he did not sense those nearby as individuals. They also did not make any aggressive moves until Anakin and Padme entered which could have also stopped those Geonosians standing out from the crowd.


But Our Heroes both sense that Padme is in danger at the beginning of AOTC.

They were on guard duty then though, their senses alert to the possibility of danger and focused on Padme's location.


I think that the ways those Force sensing abilities are portrayed in TCW are mostly like those in the films. It seems that Jedi don't sense everything automatically, yet they may do if it is an important event or concerns them personally, or people they care about. It works best when a Force user actually tries to detect another person whereas ordinarily they might miss them if it's someone sneaking around. So Vader can find Obi-Wan on the Death Star in ANH because he is specifically looking for him and they have a personal connection, yet in AOTC Dooku seemingly does not detect Obi-Wan spying on his meeting on Geonosis.

And also, the ability to detect things is diminished if the Force user is distracted or using their powers to do other things - it works best when you're calm. So in AOTC Dooku does not sense Yoda coming to the hangar because he has just been in a duel, and in the CW film Anakin does not sense Ahsoka duelling Dooku's droids because his attention was set on getting to the palace.

But then even if you do work out some 'rules' for it, there will probably be instances where the ability is not consistent - especially if TCW goes on for a while and they simply use whatever situation works best in the story they want to tell.

Perhaps it should be considered that although there are ways in which a Force user can sense things more effectively, it is by it's nature quite a hit and miss power. The Force is a living thing and connects everything in the galaxy, so if you are trying to use it to sense things in one location, your power may be either helped or hindered by what's happening elsewhere in the galaxy. So whereas a Force user might not automatically sense something, there may be instances where they get lucky with some good 'reception' as it were, and they get a sudden insight, even if they weren't trying to use their powers.

 

Well put, Yossarian. On second thought it does look like TCW is fairly consistent with how the films portrayed Force Sense. It is an inconsistent power, with several variables (relation, proximity, focus, intention, level of Force ability, etc). So it really boils down to the fact that we really can't say "That's ridculous! He should have been able to sense that!". He might... and then again he might not...

 

And then the third episode aired, in which it was all over the place.

Back to square one, Gry.

Seriously, though. I'm cool with the Jedi not being able to use it like a military radar but recognising distinct Force signatures of people they know? That's shown often enough in the films.

"Don't go, your presence is soothing"
"A presence I've not felt since...
"I have felt his presence."

Etc.

Whilst I can look past Bane getting into the Temple pretty much undetected if I view it in the context of the "shroud of the dark side" clouding things, it remains absolutely absurd that Ahsoka wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a changeling and a Jedi she knew (unless clawdites can "mimic" Force signatures, too, but that's a bit convenient) or that Anakin/Ahsoka wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Bane and a clone.

It's one thing for it to be slightly vaguer than many of us thought. It's another thing entirely if the whole point of it is thrown out of the window. *shrug*

I think, really, the only real difference between the "Lucasverse" (until his mind is changed again) and the "EUniverse" when it comes to Force sense is that it's a much less *passive* skill than the EU normally portrays it as. Jedi in TCW seem to need to actively "do it".

Which is closer to the films? That is actually an interesting question and not as clear cut as it may first appear.

 

Wow, yeah, Children of the Force really threw my explanation out the window. Force Sense is working on overdrive in that episode. Ahsoka closes her eyes, focuses a bit and BAM, the children are this way! Children she'd never even seen before, and yet she could pinpoint their location (and why did she do it while Anakin just looked dumbfounded?) The worse thing is, they didn't even have to use Force Sense, they heard them crying, just follow the direction of the sound!

On the other kinds of Force Sense, the group session to try to locate the chilren that were going to be kidnapped felt way over the top as well. Come on, Yoda could pinpoint the exact address of the house in Rodia where the kid was going to be kidnapped! That's ridiculously powerful and begs the question why he can't do the same to every other imminent danger the Republic faces.

This episode made it blatantly obvious that Force Sense works in whatever way serves the plot the writers are creating in that particular instance, with no overall consistency and established modus operandum. It's a pity, and quite lazy on the writers' part...