Form VIII?

I was just reading VaapadMaster's great essay on Vaapad Form VII, and noticed his comparison to Luke's Form in TUF. According to sources, Form VII is at its root an assembly of the other six Forms.

Form I: Luke's first Form, the Form he first used against Vader.

Form II: The Form that closely resembles what Luke's lightsaber instructor (not the one that taught him, I mean at Luke's academy). Hence the three rings of defense+Force application.

Form III: The Form taught to Luke by Obi-Wan in conjunction with Form I.

Form IV: This Form was close to what Luke opened the fight with in ROTJ is one asks me.

Form V: The Form Luke settled into, this Form took down Vader.

Form VI: This is probably the only Form Luke has no exposure to, but Luke has exposure to all the Forms that comprise this one, so it counts.

Form VII: This is where we get into interesting details. We know that the state of mind used in this form is close to the line between light and Dark. In TUF, we are practically spoonfed this form Luke's state of mind. His lightning quick movements increase the similarities. But one thing must be noticed. Juyo combined with Vaapad to form the complete Form VII consists of three different styles in itself.

Hand-to-Hand: Luke used this in Shadows of the Empire to take out Guri.

Two Sabers of Equal Size: Luke used this in Dark Tide to take on three Vong warriors.

Two sabers, one normal sized, one shortened (this style is used by Sora Bulq and is based off of the real world style Niten Ichi Ryu): Luke used this to defeat Lumiya and the lightwhip.

Luke has not only unified Form VII, but he's combined it with all of the other Forms that he's used to form that Form VII-esque saber style he used in The Unifying Force. But if he's done this, then Form VII, even with Vaapad, itself is incomplete in comparison. This leads me to my concluding question.

Has Luke created a Form VIII?

 

I actually think that DT is Niman II, but that's me.

I still maintain Luke probably knows Form VI, and parts of VII, but other than that, pretty good. However:

The problem with the idea is that he's the only person we've seen who could certainly learn this Form VII. Mace doesn't have the experience, and Revan and Kyle don't have the knowledge. I think he's the only one who could learn this.

However, if he so chose to bring Ben up in a super-Jedi home, and starts teaching early, Ben could learn this Form VIII.

It could be one of those things that happens one time at most per generation.

 

I thought Form VIII was "fan's form" made famous by the Star Wars kid.

It involves swinging a stick around, having no swordplay experience whatsoever, to try to look cool but generally goes hand in hand with scratching roofs or accidently smashing lightbulbs.

*Note*
This post was not made through personal experience. Honestly. Left hand up to God.

 

...What?

 

^I actually did that once...I was alone in the house, and started swinging a bamboo-stick all over the place, until I knocked the lamp from the ceiling...



... try explaining that to your parents

 

^^

Mine haven't noticed yet
Just ran out and bought some new bulbs

 

I was just reading VaapadMaster's great essay on Vaapad Form VII

First, just gotta say thanks, lol

According to sources, Form VII is at its root an assembly of the other six Forms.

What source is this from?

Hand-to-Hand: Luke used this in Shadows of the Empire to take out Guri.

This could have been any type of hand-to-hand combat. Teras Kasi, echani, Hapan kickboxing, to name a few.

Two Sabers of Equal Size: Luke used this in Dark Tide to take on three Vong warriors.

There is Jar'Kai, and also another incomplete form, which is known as Niman I believe (note, one of the complete forms is also known as Niman. Valiento coined the term Niman (II) to refer to the incomplete form).

Two sabers, one normal sized, one shortened (this style is used by Sora Bulq and is based off of the real world style Niten Ichi Ryu): Luke used this to defeat Lumiya and the lightwhip.

You got me there.

Luke has not only unified Form VII, but he's combined it with all of the other Forms that he's used to form that Form VII-esque saber style he used in The Unifying Force. But if he's done this, then Form VII, even with Vaapad, itself is incomplete in comparison. This leads me to my concluding question.

Has Luke created a Form VIII?

That's an interesting thought. Although I don't agree with your reasoning about 3 styles of Vaapad that he used, the theory of him combining Forms is quite interesting.

Though it should be noted that after the fall of the OR Jedi Order, there have been no formal Forms I-VII. It's quite possible that Luke and his buddies have created other forms that incorporate elements of old Forms that Luke learned.

 

Well, Vaapad Master, that's really the point I've been making. Luke has, at one time, been exposed to elements of all seven forms whether he knew it or not. The very fact that he wasn't using one specific form at all times gave him the versatility that combined all of his "forms" into one, ultimate Form VIII.

 

Right, but if he combined them all into one form, and made no others, then all other Jedi would know Form VIII as well, no? Maybe they do. Just some counterspeculation...

[brit accent] And please, call me M. VM. [/brit accent]

 

You misunderstand me. All Jedi would not know a specific Form, but rather specific details from different forms but all geared at mainly saber vs. saber with intuitive saber vs blaster. This puts them somewhere between Form II and Form VI. However, Luke needed the mental aspect of Vaapad before his Form V-I/Form VI would become Form VIII. So Form VIII was created/first used in TUF, so Luke of course had not taught it to anyone.

VM.

 

I think I understand what you're saying now. It's possible..

 

Its certainly possible... But sometimes I think we read too much into things like this--isn't it possible that Luke is just using the force to fight really well? Sure, your theory is plausible, but so is anything, and we really have no evidence that Luke has created an eighth form. Surely, its fun to speculate, but I don't think Luceno had the intention of creating a lightsaber form. He mentions that Luke's saber moved so quickly it seemed like 10 blades, and right away we all say "Hey he must know Form VII!" Sure its possible... But I don't necessarily see it that way. Luke has reached a new, profound connection with the force and is using it to spur a near super-human attack. Is it form 7? form 8? I don't know, but I'd rather see evidence before I jump to conclusions. Its an interesting theory though.

 

Actually, the fact that Luke's movements were quick wasn't what made us think he was using a Vaapad-esque style. Yoda moves fast, but no one thought that...

It was when Luke said that his fighting style put him near the edge of light and dark. And there's only one Form that does that...

 

Vapaad is lightning fast, yes. But it also doesnt waste energy being flashy...It is more efficient than Form IV

 

"Actually, the fact that Luke's movements were quick wasn't what made us think he was using a Vaapad-esque style."

Not just quick but as if there were multiple blades. Sounds familiar to me...

"It was when Luke said that his fighting style put him near the edge of light and dark. And there's only one Form that does that..."

Thats possible, but it could simply be the product of Luke's newfound understanding of the force. His relationship with Vergere and Jacen has granted him new knowledge and insight and he is no longer afraid to tap into the vast power of the force. I could see the similarity to Form VII, but I don't know if that means hes using form VII. I'd like more evidence before coming to that conclusion, but thats just me...

 

I do definatly like the idea of Luke inventing Form VIII, I hadn't thought of this until now and I'll have to think about it before I decide my opinion on it.

[________]-------------------------------
-Jedi Master Zax Starwalker

 

Upping for further discussion, since the topic has been asked about several times now in different threads.

 

I don't think you can classify any of the NJO jedis fighting methods in "forms" like the old jedi order. Rather it seems each character's fighting "style" is just a way of expressing their ability with the force and their personality. Luke took a step to reach the unifying force, which to him means coming close the the edge between good and evil. Also he's the most experienced jedi and he KNOWS in TUF that this is the endgame, so he decides to play for keeps, even if it means sacrificing himself. That sort of situation is bound to bring out the most in such an experienced swordsman.
I'd love to see in future books how other jedi masters express themselves in how they fight. It would be a good comparison of the subtle differences in the standard NJO saber technique.

 

Most Jedi don't fall into a specific Form, they usually are in between Form II and Form V, or between Form III and Form IV. It's Luke who's actually created a new form, whereas the others just have their own styles.

 

why are there lightsaber forms when each jedi has his own unique style of fighting, according to the episode 2 web docs?

 

I don't think you can classify any of the NJO jedis fighting methods in "forms" like the old jedi order.

I agree.

I don't think that the NJO is too concerned with the style of fighting. The NJO Jedi tend toward being the kind of people who go for results, rather than worrying about style. Say what you will about Kyle Katarn or Kyp Durron, but they?re not finesse people. And given the fragmentary amount of information that has come through from the old times, I doubt that anyone has made a serious effort at restoring the old styles.

I think that the NJO is more about practicality. It doesn?t matter if you use a Form III lunge or a Form VI lunge, so long as the lunge succeeds in doing what it?s meant to do.

 

"Has Luke invented Form VIII?"

No.

As I recall, there are actually fourteen documented "full forms". Can't remember where I learned it, save that it was somewhere on the Jedi Council forums, nor what most of the latter seven are.

However, I do recall this:

Form VIII: Double lightsaber, i.e. Darth Maul.

Form XIII: A non-lightsaber style of combat, using the Force as a weapon directly. Unbeatable by any lightsaber-based style. Lost to time well before the Rise of the Empire era.

Form XIV: A non-lightsaber style of combat, using the Force as a weapon directly. The supreme form of Force-augmented combat, deadlier even than Form XIII. Lost to time well before the Rise of the Empire era.

 

If Form VIII is double lightsaber, then it would not be Maul's form as he did not fight with two lightsabers but rather with a double-bladed lightsaber. More quarterstaff style fighting than holding two swords, one in each hand.

As for Luke's fighting with a lightsaber and a lightdagger, that seems to be a style which mirrors a renaissance style using a raiper and dagger.

 

*sighs* I meant a double-bladed lightsaber.

"Double lightsaber"

Note the telltatle lack of "s" on the end. Combined with the "double" in front, it would appear that the phrase hints at two of something, yet at the same time lacks plurality.

Whatever could it mean?