Foundation and Star Wars

Last night I finished the first of Issac Asimov's Foundation series, having bought a copy years ago and gotten sidetracked. It's frequently mentioned as one of the primary influences on Star Wars, and the connections are very apparent.

For the uninitiated, the story starts in the waning years of a great Galactic Empire, and, due to its form as a collection of novellas first published separately, follows various characters in various positions in the years (centuries) after the Empire's fall. Prior to said fall, a man named Hari Seldon, a scientist who used 'psychohistory' to predict the future through the aggregate behavior of populations, set up a Foundation at the edge of the galaxy to shepherd knowledge and civilization (and, it turns out, the seeds-) of a new Empire through the coming dark ages. The characters all have some tie to this foundation, and the stories have to do with how the characters resolve various crises and build the power of the Foundation.

In the spirit of ATMachine's descriptions of the way Lensman inspired SW, I offer a list of connections between the two (feel free to add more in subsequent posts).

-The whole notion of a Galactic Empire with a city planet at its physical and metaphorical center. In Foundation, this planet is called Trantor; an early name for the city-planet in SW was Jhantor.

-An ancient, galaxy-spanning political institution falling, with the story following people working to restore it.

-Characters being stationed/living at the edge of the galaxy.

-Feudal positions/systems in a science-fiction/space setting.

-'Blasters' as weapons.

-Korell (Corellia) as a planetary system of some importance (indeed, the reference to "big Corellian ships" seems to be an in-joke).

-Interstellar traders as protagonists/important parts of the narrative.

-Frame stories - in Foundation, the Encyclopedia Galactica; in SW, the Journal of the Whills. (Though perhaps the secular nature of an encyclopedia and the semi-religious - or at least prophetic - tone of the Journal illustrate differences between the attitudes the two stories are founded on?)

-Religion is very important in both narratives - though in completely different ways.

-Three-dimensional holographic communication.

Many of the more general storytelling and tonal connections - especially how many important events only happen off-screen and how the star of the story seems to be the wide-open setting, as the characters can be anyone - seem to me to apply more to the OT, and to ANH in particular. But the focus on politics thoughout is similar to the PT as well - which makes sense, as the original story in the JOTW, later recycled into TPM, sounds like it could have come straight from this galaxy of the Empire, the Foundation, and the Four Kingdoms.

I'm so glad I finally picked this up. It feels very much like the SW I first knew, when all I had was vague memories of the OT and some bits of EU (like Han Solo's Revenge). Speaking of the EU, there's a further connection in Foundation - many lines said 'dryly,' several lips twisted. The EU fans will know what I mean.

I'm going to start Foundation and Empire soon. I'm sure there will be more to add.

 

Prelude to Foundation wasn't half bad either.

Lacking in the excitement of the earlier shorts, it still adds great background to those original stories.

 

Excellent thread. The only reason I haven't started reading Foundation yet is because I have the novels on my Christmas list.

Good catch with the name "Korell." Also, there's the long-dead super-intelligent alien race, the Krell, mentioned frequently in Forbidden Planet. These two sources combined are probably where Lucas' word "Corellian" comes from.

 

Great thread! It's good to see the Foundation getting some love.

Most of the discussion about what has influenced Star Wars usually centers around Kurosawa, westerns, Flash Gordon, Buck Gordon and Joseph Campell and I think this is because you can see their influence in the story or in the look of the movie.

What I think the Foundations greatest influence on Star Wars is this feeling of the galaxy being so big. I love the snippets from the Encyclopedia Galactica that give you some basic background info whilst at the same time creating the illusion of there being more to learn by having casual remarks to names and events never mentioned in-story. Many of my favourite moments in Star Wars are like this, small snippets dialogue hinting at something larger, like for example the Clone Wars (pre-PT) or the angels of Iego.

 

Absolutely, as I noted before. I agree, and I suspect that that's a big part of why I enjoyed the book so much, as that open-universe feel is (was?) something I like(d) most about SW.

 

Also, K'rell is the Chiss name for Corellia apparently, according to Wook.

 

I forgot: Hyperspace also comes from Foundation. With the exception of the Force, the details of both settings seem extremely similar; SW borrows quite a bit.

 

There's artwork on the cover to Prelude featuring Seldon walking through some huge open air office complex. Every time I see it I think of Coruscant.

The only bad thing about this I can think of is the idea that Roland Emmerich might direct the feature film of this. I mean, it's a tough enough nut to crack as it is but Emmerich?

 

Honestly I think the original trilogy should be done on TV, keeping with the serial nature of the storytelling. Then make the sequels and prequels as feature films (theatrical OR made-for-TV would work).

 

Agreed that TV would be better suited (for all of them, just not the original trilogy), but I'd rather Asimov's future histories were simply left alone. Too much potential for key episodes being reduced to tiny, condensed prologues, epilogues & the like.

 

I think Lucas may agree with you; I seem to remember a quote from him regarding how TV is the real medium for serial storytelling, and that with more modern stories like LOST, it was finally being recognized as such.

I really can't picture Emmerich doing a very good job with this... It's like the John Carter books/planned film. It's such a classic (and I imagined it in such a specific way - I now realize, influenced by McQuarrie/Foss stylings), I can barely imagine someone doing it 'right.'

In other news:

I may have just stumbled on a further subtle but very cool connection between these two stories.

I was in the Lit forum, reading someone's joking post on how, many years from now, Starkiller will be revealed to have started an additional Rebellion behind the scenes, in case the original failed. I posted a response referencing Star's End.

Then my mind flashed to the Gary Kurtz interview where he said

In his description, this is before the Emperor was to have appeared in the films, hence before the fall of the Empire.

It's generally understood 'round these parts that Kurtz's characterizations of the 'original' ideas for the various films are probably conflations of multiple plans and comments, all rolled into a semi-coherent but not necessarily representative whole.

But then, the concept of Luke having a hidden sister has been a legitimate part of the mythos for a long time, long before Jedi.

So we have a situation here where Luke's sister is hidden somewhere, her location (and name, per Lucas) to be revealed later - presumably in an additional sequel film (Star Wars III or later). And her location is far from Luke, who started on a planet "farthest from the bright center of the universe."

The sister plot point is connected to the Other plot point. And of course, the Other in Empire as released turned out to be Luke's sister, even if Lucas claims that the line was written without any specific already-extant character in mind. There's also this quote from Lucas in 1980 regarding the sequel films and the Other Yoda mentions:

It's unclear which 'third film' Lucas means, but the Other has already been associated with post-ESB parts of the story, regardless.

So, one or more of the sequel films were to involve, or possibly feature, a new character, this Other, possibly/probably Luke's sister, who was hidden at the time of the Rebellion of the OT in a part of the galaxy far from the action we saw on screen. I may be reaching, but I believe this may be a (coincidental?) connection with Asimov; the Other is the Second Foundation, hidden at the "other end" of the galaxy - the Imperial capitol.

 

Very, very interesting connection, but definitely reaching. Bit too generic a concept to necessarily connect to Asimov's 'Star's End' idea.

Even so, it's a fun bit of speculation that I don't recall anyone ever touching on. Luke's sister was hidden 'far away on the other side of the galaxy' - not a remote region, but the very bright centre that Tatooine is farthest from. Like Coruscant.

Or even Alderaan. Hey wait a minute...

 

Yes, there's that - the placement of the twins mirroring the placement of the Foundations.

Speaking of the Second Foundation, their mind-altering powers seem slightly reminiscent of those displayed by SW Force users. ( There's also the fact that the book had characters named Bail and Han, which seems more than mere coincidence. )

 

It's not as much borrowed as it is lifted wholesale The ships are even described as making "jumps into hyperspace" by Asimov

This thread inspired me to dust off my Foundation books and read them through one more time, so I might post my thoughts as I go along

 

I started reading these about a month or two ago; one thing I'd like to remark upon is their interesting near-total lack of conventional action. The main characters effect things without really actually doing anything; it's all political or spiritual manipulation for them to pacify their enemies and maintain galactic control.

I'm sure this sounds familiar in light of the prequel's revelations about the machinations of a certain overarching villain...

[image=http://sithsigma.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/darthsidious.jpg]

 

This eventually comes full circle: in Foundation's Edge(1982) there is a passage which sounds like it was lifted almost directly from Han's little speech about the dangers of hyperspace travel in ANH.

 

One of my favorite things about Asimov is how his writing matured into "immature" subject matter. His early work is starkly free of sex and violence, and then by the time he was writing the prequels he's got Hari Seldon doing some sci-fi form of judo.

 

I haven't gotten to the prequels yet, but I will say Seldon is about the last book character I can imagine beating the crap out of people.

 

Great thread!
There are a lot of connections.
In ancient history, I posted this thread:
Asimov's Influence Over the Saga.
It has been locked for a while but has some good conversation (but you probably shouldn't read it until you've read through the Foundation series.)

In high school, I was reading all the Asimov books. Good reads.

-Seldon

 

A couple of additional thoughts:
-The character of the Mule (Foundation & Empire) completely disrupts the galactic political order, has incredible mental powers where he is able to remotely control his navy and military command, and without giving it all away--is a character who seems somewhat innocent but is actually pulling the strings...
There are connections to Anakin and Palpatine. Both Vader and the Emperor are able to remotely control the imperial fleet, both have in many ways disrputed the galactic order...Palpatine seems like a good senator acting in the best interest of his people but really has more nefarious motives--Anakin was simply a boy, a former slave, a war hero--who was corrupted by power. There are connections there.
The Mule disrupted the Seldon Plan, Anakin/Vader/Emperor disrupted a Republic, crushed an ancient religious order, established an empire.


-The use of parsec, hyperspace, jumps in hyperspace, calculations for hyperspace, intelligent robots

-I argued in the other thread that the Second Foundation has certain connections to the Jedi Order.

-

 

Got the original Foundation trilogy for Christmas this year, and finished reading through them. I agree very much with the lists compiled so far of Lucas' borrowings from Asimov.

One question--I've heard, as mentioned above, that Lucas wanted to call Coruscant "Jhantor," in homage to Trantor. But at what point (i.e. in what script or story treatment) did he use this name, and for which SW film?

 

Hmm, found the apparent answer to my own question--some Googling has revealed that Jhantor as the name for a city-planet shows up in a 1983 piece of fan fiction that circulated on Usenet, claiming to be a story treatment for Episode III. If there's an earlier, official SW source from which the fanfic author derived the name, I haven't found it yet.

 

Didn't Zahn coin to the name Coruscant? I could be wrong on that--but I believe Lucas authorized EU to name the planet.

In any case, another connection (a small one):
The Mule's Visi Sonor is at least visually similar to the scene from Episode III where Palpatine and Anakin watch the 3D light show/opera.

 

That's the notorious STAR WARS III: FALL OF THE REPUBLIC (From The Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi) by John L. Flynn, which was the source for many a prequel rumour from 1983-1999.

It's purely fan fiction, I don't think it was actually put out as a hoax - the author being someone other than George Lucas is a dead giveaway - but many took it as authentic. The rumour that GL wanted to call the Imperial home planet 'Jhantor' would have stemmed from this, just like other 'facts' that would find their way onto websites & even into magazines.

To my knowledge, the only other official names for the planet that would eventually be called Coruscant were Alderaan (Story Synopsis, first Rough Draft & Drafts 2 & 3 of The Star Wars), Granicus (Revised First Draft of The Star Wars), Had Abbadon (early drafts of ROTJ) & Imperial Center (generic term used in certain 1990s LFL publications).

 

I'd just like to add something: traders/smugglers being adventurers used to further a cause. In the Foundation you have Hober Mallow and the traders on Askone (names escape me right now) who are risk-takers who become a vital part of the Foundation's expansion. Whilst not a tool of the rebels, smugglers in Star Wars are still directly subverting Imperial rule and through Han and Lando, we see that they fit easier among the rebels than the imperials