Grand Admiral Thrawn, Supreme Commander of the Imperial Fleet... as early as _Wedge's Gamble_!!!

With thanks to Senator_Cilghal for drawing this to my attention. It's just a little something from Charlene Newcomb's Mission to Zila, SWAJ #3 and Hyperspace...

This story must take place concurrently with Wedge's Gamble, at the end of 6 ABY, as it's in the same timeframe as the Rebel advance on Coruscant, as witnessed by this conversation between Governor Tork Winger of Garos IV and his daughter...

"Yes, many of them were evacuated from Coruscant and other worlds in the path of the Rebel onslaught," Winger told her.

She grimaced to herself. "So, the rumors are true. The Rebels are within striking distance of the Capital?"

"It may be only a matter of days until Coruscant is in Rebel hands." He shook his head in obvious dismay. He'd visited Imperial City years before and couldn't bear to imagine the destruction.

Now, later in the same story, in the same timeframe, we have this exchange between two Imperial lieutenants...

"I do," he said, the cockiness gone as a frown wrinkled his brow. The only thing it could mean was more protection for the mines in anticipation of a Rebel Alliance assault. "You really think they'll head this way, Haslip?"

Dair swallowed hard, a worried look on his face. "Yeah," he said. I'm counting on it. A thousand thoughts raced through his mind as he stared out the window. "I wonder if they'll evacuate us."

Nilo looked at him. "Maybe we won't have to worry about it," he said hopefully. "Maybe that Grand Admiral will bury the Rebels once and for all!"

"What Grand Admiral?" Dair asked, a feeling of dread coming over him.

"You have been out of it, haven't you?" Nilo kidded him.

"What Grand Admiral?" he insisted in a tone that caught Nilo off guard.

"Calm down, Haslip! Some Grand Admiral has taken command of the fleet. Captain Emba from the Tempest told the general that his ship's been called to a rendezvous out in the Borderlands with our old friends from the Judicator."

"What else have you heard about this Grand Admiral?" Dair asked.

"Not much," he said shaking his head. "Supposedly he's been working in the Unknown Regions all these years since the Emperor died."

"And he's reorganizing the fleet?"

"Yeah. Emba said this guy's a tactical genius."

"Genius, huh?"

"Those were his exact words. Guess he's planning something big -- that's why the Judicator hasn't been here for a while."

For a moment Dair was lost in his own thoughts. Rumors circulated every so often about something big, as Nilo put it. But talk of a Grand Admiral -- this was new. Could this Grand Admiral put the Empire back on the offensive? What would this mean to Garos IV?

That would be Thrawn, then....

Obviously, this has some remarkable implications for what was really going on with the Imperial strategy in the years after Endor...

Now of course, the real reason is that Mission to Zila appeared in 1994, and the X-wing stuff dates to 1996 - Newcomb simply didn't peg the fall of Coruscant so early; but canon evidence is canon evidence. Thrawn was in command before the Rebels took Coruscant, and a little tit-bit from Wedge's Gamble itself may suggest that Stackpole was well aware of the fact...

"It is true that in the past Major Wortin would have been executed, but we cannot afford to squander our personnel with such abandon anymore. I have approved your suggestion that he be transferred to the Inexorable. Under Thrawn he will learn lessons he should already know, or he will die."

Now, everyone assumes Inexorable was in the Unknown Regions at this time, but that's nowhere said. What is known about her is that, like Judiciator (see above), she was part of the Grand Admiral's core task-force following his return...

Secretly, perhaps... carefully and subtly hidden... but the last of the Grand Admirals was already playing chess with the New Republic way back then...

*blinks* Oh, of course...

 

Then he's probably responsible for the idiotic giving up of Coruscant.

;-)

 

That's very strange...

Could you give the page numbers from Wedge's Gamble please?


That of course would mean that Thrawn could very well be responsable for Isard's retreat from Coruscant. That's distressing, because it sounds like a Palpatine class military tactic. Give up Coruscant, and try to re take it again. Perhaps Thrawn wanted a heart to be able to stab at? Perhaps it was a plot to be able to concentrate and rally the Imperial forces around him, only to have them leave when they got word of the Palpatine's clone? Perhaps Isard was so obsessed with her little battle with Rogue Squadron that she didn't tell Thrawn and did it on her own. Perhaps Thrawn was waiting for her to get herself killed.


This is very strange...

 

Nice catch in both sources, McEwok. It seems clear that Thrawn either stupidly mishandled the core New Republic fleet units surrounding the capital itself, or *brilliantly* did likewise, depending on one's POV...maintaining a nerve-center intact for the final killing blow sounds very Thrawn-ish, and letting Isard bleed herself white fighting the starfighter insurgencies would've been another tactic right up his alley.

Now posit your theory to Ms. Newcomb herself here.

 

Uhmm... strange and interesant.

So the Mittw' ... better I call he Thrawn has the commander after de die of the Emperor, so he is the second in the Empire ranks, oooooh.



Thats fragment is for the Wedge Gamble or a complement tale?

 

Hmmmm... It doesn't mention Thrawn by name, so it could be some sort of replacement grand admiral created by Isard after so many of them had died. And he was sent to the UR in the first place to learn under Thrawn as part of some kind of grand admiral big brother program perhaps? And once there Captain Brandi met Thrawn and Thrawn thought he liked his and the Judicator's style. And all is explained.

 

Does it specify what fleet? It may be that he was given a smaller fleet to work with at first, during the periods where he was consolodating forces to build the Moff's trust in him. The debacle with Coruscant and trying to fight Zsinj may have been the final push for the Moffs to give hrawn complete control, as he was actually making progress.

 

Well, we already know that Isard had contact with Thrawn at this time, since she gave him Baron Fel. We just didn't know how much contact.

 

Well, this seems like a perfect thread to bring this up in, both chronologically and contextually. In Rogue Squadron, IIRC, Isard refers to a Colonel Thrawn (I'll try and find the page #s later), but I seem to recall Thrawn being promoted well before Endor, and to jump from Colonel to Grand Admiral in so short a time seems amazing (although with Thrawn's level of tactical ability, the only truly amazing thing seems to be that he would not be promoted earlier). So what's the deal with that? Is my memory totally wrong? Is this just Stackpole's flawed attempt to reference earlier (Earth-earlier, not chronological earlier) EU? Was Thrawn really promoted from Colonel to Grand Admiral in only a few short years and promoted by Ysanne Isard?

 

Thrawn was made a secret Grand Admiral under Palpatine; officially his rank was probably that of an Admiral. "Colonel Thrawn" must be a mistake - or, if one wants to have an in-universe explanation - a snub.

 

Probably a snub. Isard doesn't seem to like Thrawn much. Plus Thrawn as at least a Vice-Admiral publicly in TIE Fighter. Why would he have an army rank?

 

Beat me to it, but saying it again awards me another post, right? In Antille's Gamble, he was a colonel. But that's was his masquerade rank.

 

Why a masquerade? he was a well known Vice-Admiral in TIE fighter, unless the new Colonel designator was part of his "disgrace"

 

Simplest explanation is that Colonel Thrawn is a misprint, nothing more. Just ignore it. A slightly less simple explanation is that there's another alien Thrawn, one who coincididentally has a last name similar to Mitt'raw'nuruodo's core name.

Thrawn would never have been a colonel (which is an Army/Stormtrooper rank) and he was a Vice Admiral by ESB and Grand Admiral by Endor.

Another explanation that occurs to me as I write this is also that Captain is the naval equivalent of Colonel, and for whatever reason Stackpole (or in-universe, Isard) mixed them up.

 

Thrawn would never have been a colonel (which is an Army/Stormtrooper rank) and he was a Vice Admiral by ESB and Grand Admiral by Endor.

I believe the official answer is Thrawn was privately promoted to being a Grand Admiral well before his promotion with Zaarin (why he wears a white uniform) and had several "secret ranks" in various parts of the military.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts! My personal suspicion is that, if this reading is right, Thrawn did deliberately give the Rebels Coruscant largely to lock them into a more predictable pattern of behaviour, turning them from freedom-fighters into a government that could, perhaps, eventually negotiate its own surrender... but I suspect that, being Thrawn, he was dealing with a multiplicity of manipulations and machinations, any and all of which could be turned several ways depending on what happened...

The quote in Wedge's Gamble is page 55; the quote in Rogue Squadron (p. 161) is actually Kirtan Loor, reflecting on the service record of Captain Uwlla Iillor of the Black Asp: Iillor had been sent to serve under Colonel Thrawn and a host of other alien superior officers before she had been given a ship of her own.

This reference may be pre-Endor, but it's hardly relevant. It just adds to other evidence that Thrawn carries an ostensible "cover rank" lower than his real rank. In TIE Fighter, he's a Grand Admiral, wearing white, but the public is being told he's a Vice-Admiral. In the Galaxy of Fear kids' books, he's a nominal Navy Captain while probably already a Grand Admiral...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I love this McEwok, thx for bringing it to my attention!

Thrawn rocks!

but.. did Isard know or didn´t she know? He took the fleet away from her, or did she present it to him?

bigger but.. we all seem to forget one source that has Thrawn in it also before the Trilogy: Tatooine Ghost. Wasn´t somewhere there mentioned that he "just returned" from the UR? or am I mistaken here? have no exact quote in my mind, but I thought the book said so. though I prefer and believe more in Charlene's version with Genius being arround for a much longer!

and about Thrawns rank-hopping:

easiest explanation is this:

he is Grand Admiral early, yes. but known to most as Vice-Admiral. but sometimes he goes on ground missions personally, either posing as Colonel, Cpt, etc. remember that Chiss stromtrooper in Tatooine Ghost? I still think it was HIM and not a Chiss serving him. In the Galaxy of Fear books he might have taken the rank of Cpt
only to infiltrate the forces he worked with and get to know them (on Palpatines order perhaps? because he wasn´t known to the masses yet he could do such stuff. and when visiting an grand admiral later they would only think he´s another of the same species)

though the Stele Chronicles of Tie Fighter show him not only as a Grand Admiral, but also as very well known in the lowest ranks of troops and pilots attending award zeremonies and their gossip about an alien serving in the UR for the emperor as Grand Admiral.

 

He probably transitted back and forth into the UR between Wedge's Gamble and Tat Ghost. Maybe he split his time between organizing his fleet and preparing/ updating his strategy at Nirauan. I also like the theory that Thrawn was having to prove himself to the Moffs, but after the debacles of Isard and Zsinj, they decided to go with him.

 

Maybe Thrawn couldn't come onto the scne until Tatooine Ghost because he had bigger fish to fry in the UR that couldn't wait?

Or was Thrawn actually taking orders from Palpatine, who for whatever reason told Thrawn to stay away until Zsinj's death?

 

CH: a pleasure!

There are no Imperial POV characters in Tatooine Ghost; everything we're told is overheard by Han and Leia... there's also the question of Pellaeon's POV in T3, which suggests that he percieves Thrawn as having been absent over most of the years since Endor... if this is the case (and I'd have to check; it may be possible that Pellaeon and Thrawn's acquaintance is longer than we thought) then I suspect that we could simply say that Thrawn had recently revealed himself to the Empire at large, and shifted his flag to Chimaera - when in fact he'd been active for rather longer.

though the Stele Chronicles of Tie Fighter show him not only as a Grand Admiral, but also as very well known in the lowest ranks of troops and pilots attending award zeremonies and their gossip about an alien serving in the UR for the emperor as Grand Admiral.

Gah! There is a problem here, inasmuch as T3 implies that Thrawn was unknown to the Empire at large, but TIE Fighter the SWAJ material gave him a public promotion between Hoth and Endor. I guess the Empire may have very efficient Ministry of Truth style systems for spreading misinformation and removing records, especially if the news was limited to people at Coruscant and/or in specific sections of the Endor Fleet...

That said, Mara's reference to his "secret promotion to Grand Admiral" makes it clear (in conjunction with everything else!) that he was a Grand Admiral well before his public promotion...

My personal suspicion is that he was operating in ostensible alliance with Isard - we know she "reenlisted" Fel for him ... though I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he was perhaps manipulating her to eventually undermine abd replace her.

There's also the question of what Fel might have been up to. In In the Empire's Service, he thinks that the time has come to strike against Isard; and yet he obeys her orders, pulls out the 181st, and stays on alone - ostensibly to bring down Wedge, the one thing we know he would never do. His "duty to the Empire" is, I think, a feigned defection - his claim to Count Laban a few issues later that he's still working for the Empire may, I think, beentirely authentic...

But that may just be me!

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Isard was the legitimate Imperial Regent during this period, technically speaking Grand Admiral Thrawn would report directly to Isard in much the same way he reported to Emperor Palpatine. However, his rank does designate him as the highest Imperial Navy Officer which would give him the authority, under Isard?s Regency, to reorganize the remnants of the Imperial Star Fleet.

As far as I was aware the decision to sacrifice Coruscant was Isard?s, although there was some allusion to a possibility Emperor Palpatine had some level of control over the regency.

The quote simply stated that Thrawn was reorganizing the Imperial Star Fleet, actions which are well within his authority as the remaining (loyal) Grand Admiral. The Grand Admiralty was afforded a great deal of autonomy under Palpatine and it is very likely that, as long as he does not draw away resources specifically ordered to be present by Regent Isard, Thrawn could do whatever he wished.

With the fall of the Regency and Isard?s disappearance from the Core Systems the Imperial Ruling Council, or more accurately the body which had taken the position of the IRC, handed Thrawn the reigns of the Empire sometime before Heir to the Empire. Information indicating the IRC thought it could manipulate Thrawn into something of a figurehead is consistent with his total disconnect with politics during the regency.

Thrawn was in command of specific loyal Imperial forces and was actively engaged in reorganizing the Imperial Star Fleet. The IRC appointed Thrawn Supreme Commander only after the fall of Coruscant, and actually intended to control him as a political pawn. The Grand Admiral however was far to astute to allow the IRC to truly control the Empire, and after consolidating a few Rouge Warlords, was de facto Emperor by DFR.

Thrawn was clearly not Supreme Commander during the Isard Regency, though he was clearly beginning to take personal control of the Imperial Star Fleet.

I also highly doubt that the greatest of the Emperor?s Grand Admirals would hand the terrorist Rebel Alliance the only true legitimate seat of political power in the entire galaxy.

The fall of Coruscant helped to further fracture the loyalties of the Imperial State and served to create a more chaotic system, one which would require a greater deal of time and effort to consolidate for Thrawn?s master plan.

Isard was the legitimate Imperial Regent until the fall of Coruscant and Thrawn was beginning to consolidate the remnants of the Imperial Star Fleet.

There is little doubt in my mind that Isard was calling the shots (perhaps, as some say, as a proxy of Palpatine) during the post-Endor disaster.



Also, Ewok, very good work.
I did not even catch this Thrawn reference after multiple readings.

 

IH181: Isard was the legitimate Imperial Regent during this period

Was she, though?

I was under the impression that she simply used her wide-ranging powers as Director of Intelligence to round up people using the security apartaus, essentially using the oversight powers already granted to Intelligence as a mechanism of control for the rest of the government machinery... so yes, she's legitimate Director of Intelligence, and her removal of her rivals was within her legitimate authority, but that doesn't give her any more de jure authority than she already posessed - there's simply no formal capacity to replace the people she removed...

I also highly doubt that the greatest of the Emperor?s Grand Admirals would hand the terrorist Rebel Alliance the only true legitimate seat of political power in the entire galaxy.

I (politely! ) disagree. Thrawn isn't a politician (cf. Jag's attitude - Julien Sorel to his Napoleon - in DJ, This phalanx has never been ruled by the thinking of tradition-bound Chiss senators, or by Imperial politicians whose first concern is personal power)... he's a military leader, though that doesn't mean he just leads the military...

Two reasons why Thrawn would allow the Rebels to take Coruscant:
1.) It undermines civilian authority within the Empire, and strengthens his own status. Thrawn removes all symbols of central legitimacy (note that in about 5/6 ABY, a Noghri team assassinates Admiral Betl Oxtroe, preventing Palpatine's niece Ederlathh Pallopides serving as the figurehead for rapprochement with the New Republic); this allows the white uniform of the last Grand Admiral to become the focus, both iconic and literal, of Imperial authority...
2.) It transforms the Rebellion from a terrorist organization into a respectable, bureaucratic government aparatus. The bulk of the Galaxy's troublemakers and insurgents have become enmeshed in a system of formal authority. Thrawn was planning on opening negotiations for their surrender after Bilbringi... and that would never have been possible beforehand...

Also, Ewok, very good work.
I did not even catch this Thrawn reference after multiple readings.

Thank you!!



- The Imperial Ewok

 

Technically speaking the legitimate head of the Emperor never ceased to be HIM Palpatine until his death at Onderon.
Isard claimed the Imperial Regency and was relatively unopposed which made her de facto ruler of the Empire.

After doing some checking around I realize that Imperial Intelligence was a branch of the Imperial Armed Forces, which would place Isard within the same command structure as Grand Admiral Thrawn.

However, as Director of Intelligence Isard may have technically outranked the Grand Admiral who was simply the highest ranking military officer in the Imperial Star Fleet.

Another possibility is that Isard and Thrawn hold mutually exclusive titles which indicate no superiority over either of the other, which would allow the Ruling Council to technically define the superior.

Thanks to cowing the IRC (or is it the ERC?) Isard was likely able to define herself as ?legitimate? Regent, even if the means by which she gained the Regency were less than standard practice.




Hmm...I better go to class....more later

 

Palpatine had a niece?