Grand Moff vs. Grand Admiral

As a Grand Moff, would Tarkin have had the authority to overrule a Grand Admiral like Thrawn?

 

That's fascinating, given the import and clout the EU foists upon Tarkin.

 

Good question, never really considered it. Wookieepedia suggests that a Grand Admiral outranks a Grand Moff (the flow being the Emperor (as head of state) -> Vader (as commander-in-chief of the military/executor) -> Pestage -> (as head of government) -> the Ruling Council/Advisers (the government) -> Grand Admirals -> Grand Moffs -> Moffs -> Imperial High Command/Ubiqtorate/the Select Committee). However, this isn't sourced on Wookieepeda, so take it with a grain of salt.

Both Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals are personally appointed by the Emperor and answer to him, but both seem to be positioned beneath the Ruling Council (as suggested by the interim ruling council appointing Thrawn as de facto emperor upon his return, and the Ruling Council delivering orders to Tarkin aboard the Death Star, as seen in the Imperial Sourcebook). Vader obviously outranks them all due to his unique position, although I'm not sure if he was elevated to Supreme Commander/commander-in-chief status until after Yavin since Tarkin was able to keep him on a leash at the time.

The difference between Grand Moffs and Grand Admirals is that Grand Moffs have set pieces of territory in which they directly control and administer, and all forces within that territory answer to him. IIRC, Grand Moffs oversee Oversectors (a large grouping of sectors), and some oversee Priority Sectors, sectors given priority status due to high-rebel activity.

Grand Admirals, on the other hand, don't really seem to have a particular set command, and indeed some even overlap with the rank of Grand Moff... some were in charge of weapons development (Batch developing the cloaking shield) and starfighter technology (Zaarin), while some were given special fleets to pacify the Unknown Regions on behalf of the Empire (Thrawn), but most were unusual. For instance, Teshik was in charge of Imperial Center OverSector or OverSector Zero, which would normally be a Grand Moff's job (it was apparently ruled by Grand Moff Trachta until his betrayal, then passed to Grand Admiral Teshik, then to Grand Admiral Tigellinus). Another ruled the Mandalore sector. Tigellinus spent most of his time in the Outer Rim Territories, fighting pirates... how did this interfere with Grand Moff Tarkin's command? The rest just seemed to float around on their flagship, doing whatever. It's confusing! Or maybe the Emperor wanted it that way, to keep them stepping on each others' toes to prevent them from ever amassing too much power.

 

Heh. Remember the discussion well.

The Wookipedia suggestion that a Grand Admiral somehow "outranks" a Grand Moff, is of course one of those fan-fiction posturing embellishments that manages to somehow occur -- who'd have thunk it possible when you have the inmates running the asylum, so-to-speak in the form of the fan-maintained open-edit scheme.

My opinion remains unchanged from Jello's wonderful referenced thread.

 

In the Wookieepedia page for Grand Moffs, its stated that Grand Moffs rank beneath Grand Generals, despite the fact that we know next to nothing about that rank so I'd take any info from there with a pinch of salt.

We also need to remember that Rufaan Tigellinus was promoted from Grand Admiral to Grand Moff, possibly indicating that Grand Moff was a higher rank. Since Grand Moff is a political AND military position, with the de facto ranks of Surface Marshal and High Admiral due to their military influence I'd say they technically outrank Grand Admirals on all issues except for naval forces. Grand Admirals outrank High Admirals and have the right to requisition any ship in a sector fleet under their command.

I'd say that Grand Moffs outrank Grand Admirals but due to their unique naval position they still outrank Grand Moffs when it comes to the deployment of military forces within the sector of oversector they're currently operating in.

 

Page 93 of Galaxy at War states that Moffs and Grand Moffs "occupy a grade designation somewhere between O-12 and O-13" (i.e. between Fleet Admiral and High Admiral in the Naval rankings). Grand Admirals are O-14.

EDIT:

Grand Generals are also listed as O-14.

 

I would be perfectly comfortable with a Moff as an O-12 and a Grand Moff as an O-13 however; it would seem to make the most sense.

Grand Moffs are satraps, plenipotentiaries of HIM within the defined Oversector (or Sector as it were), but with limitations on their formal authority coextensive with their regional borders. Within a Grand Moff's AoR his position as an O-13 would make most sense, as he would require either a direct command rank over the Sector Group, or a command rank superior to the Sector Group High Admiral.

A Grand Admiral likely retains technical authority over the naval assets of the Imperial Navy as he deems necessary, however a direct conflict between a Grand Admiral and a Grand Moff would likely be avoided. The Moff represents a political appointment, likely more so than a military one, and would likely appeal any detrimental actions of a Grand Admiral within his AoR to the Ruling Council or Grand Vizier.

I could easily see a point upon which a Grand Admiral seizes Sector-level assets without first conferring with the local Moff (for instance when Thrawn was pursuing Zaarin) out of pure necessity as a means to accomplish an objective delivered the Ruling Council or possibly HIM directly.

I can see a Moff complaining, and launching a political assault on the GA, but I doubt he could interfere directly. (and based on the O-12 to O-13 ranking, he would not have the technical authority to do anything it seems.)

I always saw the Grand Admirals as Palpatine's attempt to centralize all military assets under a purely military hierarchy that served as a direct extension of The Throne's authority.

 

You need to take the entire section in context. Galaxy at War actually greatly expands the power and authority of your basic, run-of-the-mill non-Grand Moff.

Particularly the related narrative: "Moffs are technically outside both the army and naval chains of command, answerable only to the Emperor. Despite this,, they can take command of either army or naval units at their whim."

Now, if a Grand Admiral (and Grand General) is a naval (or army) "unit," then they are at the whim of even a lowly -- run-of-the-mill Moff, much less a Grand Moff. And if one takes the position that the individual Grand Admiral/General is exempt from the Moff's whims (not necessarily a Grand Moff, though), every single other "unit" under and right up to that GA/GG is. So, lots of luck for that GA/GG getting a ride back to Coruscant when the lowly Moff takes command of the Star Destroyer from under him.

Of course GA/GG's aren't, exactly military units. In the same way Grand Moffs aren't exactly political entities. The Military High Command cannot "propmote" any GA's/GG's from within the military heirarchy. Palpatine appoints them the same way he appoints Grand Moffs.

I suspect that in any explicit head-to-head opposing orders situation, it'd be simply might makes right, and the last one standing would get the Emperor's blessing (fter all, it wouldn't be like he would be able to commend the dead loser).

And of course, we still have Imperial Sourceboo's statement that Grand Moffs are given complete freedom to act as they see fit. Within the Grand Moffs's priority sector (which may geographically span multiple sectors), they are the supreme voice and will of the Empire.

 

I don't disagree, but the same can be said of the Grand Admirals.

However, I do think it's all moot to a degree. One good test of them all is how Palpatine handled them each after the Battle of Endor. Grand Admirals and Grand Moffs alike all were put at the fringe of Imperial bureaucracy.

And a new Supreme Commander position was minted to replace them all. For all the military genius of Grand Admirals and Grand Generals, it was R2-D2 who was the man -- er, droid -- who actually was in charge of the whole shebang.

 

I recall a section from the Imperial Sourcebook that states that the Imperial hierarchy and rank structure is intentionally vague and confusing because that's the way Palpatine wants it, so that his underlings are never quite sure where they stand and are constantly butting heads to prevent them from ever amassing too much power and influence. I think the Grand Moff/Grand Admiral situation is a perfect example of this.

 

As someone else pointed out earlier, Tarkin was certainly an exception to the rule. Heck, it seemed to me that at times he had more authority than even Vader. "Vader, release him!" comes to mind. Also, he was the one that made the call to obliterate Alderaan, not Vader.

 

West End Games is an old old source now. It's got to be at least twenty years old now, but the distinction was pretty clear in the original work that the Moffs are a CIVILIAN authority that just has the TRAPPINGS of a military authority. Moffs are military governors who are appointed by the Advisory Council to rule over the Empire's 1000 sectors.

According to the Imperial Sourcebook, I believe, Moffs are given command of a Fleet Admiral and General of all the military forces in the Sector and basically rule them as a mini-Commander in Chief acting on behalf of the Empire. I always felt it made more sense to think of the Empire as a Federation of all things in the classic USA sense.

The Empire actually works very well in the respect of being 1,000 "states" answering to the Emperor. Each of them being largely autonomous in the feudal manner.

Grand Moffs in this model work as Dukes instead of Barons. Oversectors really vary tremendously in size and prestige. Grand Moff Tarkin was the ruler of the entire Outer Rim territories while Grand Moff Hissa seems to have been ruler of what was little more than a slightly larger than normal Moff's Sector. There was also a Grand Moff who was nothing more than the glorified planetary governor of Coruscant. In effect, the Mayor of Washington D.C crossed with New York.

The Grand Admirals, by contrast, wielded power over the entire Imperial military. I suspect Tarkin was the first Grand Moff and after his obvious treason and failure, Palpatine drastically curtailed the power of the Grand Moffs and made them nothing more than glorified nobility.

BTW - Ars Dangor comes from a time when the Emperor was actually a puppet of the Sith Lord Grand Vizier who was Darth vader's master.

 

The Empire only has the Emperor himself and any Duke or so on title might be appointed. There is no "peerage" around the Emperor as he is an absolute despot in the oriental model. The closest thing is the advisory who serve the role of eunuchs in the court and the bureaucracy around the Emperor's household.

The feudal model is meant by terms of administration, not actual rulership by ownership.

A nice statement from "Looking for Group" is "The Emperor does not share power but he's very good at delegating it."

 

Baron Fel was a Corellian Baron. There's no hint of an actual established Imperial Nobility. The only other Baron is the Tagge family and they have their local customs.

Really, I'm confused. You can't see ANY comparisons or valid ideas here?

But fine, if you like, we'll go with that. I really don't see anything remotely resembling the kind of Empire you're describing in canon. You give the Advisory way too much power when Lucas' notes show them as essentially venal fops who exist to just handle the day-to-day minutia. Likewise, there's no sign of an established nobility with the majority of the government done by the Moffs.

"I.e. the Regional governors now have direct control over their territories."

There, that's all I'm saying.

More or less, though, here's the view it comes down to for anyone else:

Emperor
I
Advisors - Grand Admirals - Grand Moffs
I
Moffs
I
Governors-Admirals-Generals

As for the Grand Generals, I think they mostly just exist as people who serve in the Joint Chiefs role.

 

I'm not speaking for Lucas, merely pointing out how the Star Wars story developed.

1. Yes, but a Central Committee of Grand Moffs was actually what was called the Grand Moffs as opposed to a meeting of Moffs (which is what the children's books called a conference of Moffs). There's no hint the Advisors were in charge of this.

2. Ars Dangor relayed the Emperor's message. There's no hint that he actually made any sort of decision regarding the subject. That's like saying the postman is in charge of your bills.

3. Mission to Lianna had an idiot investigating a development in technology. A mission, I point out, which even I think an Advisor was grossly overqualified for.

4. I don't own the Far Orbit Project but I own most of the AJ and there's very little indication the Advisors had much in the way of power. Instead, they just come off as having a portion of the Imperial Remnant's power and control over the Core Worlds.

5. The DESB talks about how they seized control after Grand Admiral Thrawn's reign and took over Coruscant plus their failed attempt to elect an Emperor. Amusingly, the Moffs immediately asserted their independence and there was nothing the Advisors could do about it.

Re: Fel

Palpatine is fully capable of granting titles even if they're solely Corellian in nature. It's no different were Palpatine to make Fel King of Corellia.