GRAY Jedi

DISCLAIMER:

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Before we start the discussion, let's not descend into a war of semantics. It is well known that some think the name "Dark Jedi" is oxymoronic is as much as the name "Jedi" inherently implies service in/to the light side of the Force. This discussion is not intended to be about whether or not the name "Gray Jedi" makes sense. Thank you.

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In my obsessed searchings for all things Force-related, I ran across a few fan-sites that obviously like the idea of a Force-user who employed a less tradtional Jedi approach to serving the Force. Some of these sites allowed their Gray Jedi use of darkside skills while others more or less made them out to be mavricks, a la Qui-Gon Jinn.

Which brings me to the crux of this discussion. Until now, the Gray Jedi had been an entity reserved for fan fiction and roleplaying adventures. I say "until now" because the term has shown up in an official title.

In the first issue of the new story arc of DHC's on-going comic, The Stark Hyperspace War, Wookie Jedi Master and Council Member (how cool is that?!?!) Tyvokka callenges Plo Koon's suggestion that Qui-Gon Jinn be considered for an open Council seat. Tyvokka says, "<It will not happen. Too stubborn, that one. Jinn always does things his own way, always sure he is right, always incredulous if we do not see it his way. Some think he is a Gray Jedi.>"

So what does this mean? A member of the Jedi Council uses a term, not just an adjective, to describe the conduct of a Jedi. Could this be a simple turn of phrase? I don't feel confident in that. Certainly Tyvokka could have said something along the lines of "<Jinn's actions often border on selfishness.>" or "<Some questions Jinn's methods.">, but to use the term "Gray Jedi" implies something more to me.

What are your thoughts?

 

I saw that and I found it very interesting. From the beginning of SW Web Sites, I've been one of those whom you've described, JME. From my knowledge on the subject, I can trace Gray Jedi (actual term and everything) back to about 1994, some seven years ago. His SWRPG concepts of the Gray Jedi ("Grey Jedi") have pretty much been a fixture of my Beyond Hyperspace Sourcebook - Shades of Grey section. I have used and modified them in my own SWRPG campaigns.

The relevent section from The Beyond Hyperspace Sourcebook is as follows (note, I'm not going to even try to format the whole thing properly - go check the link to see it correctly.):
Shades of Grey
Many think that there are only two sides to the Force, that morality is either good or evil, white or black...Light or Dark. This is not the case. History has shown that the Force does, indeed help those who may not be considered "good" or "evil." The Force is truely a force of nature, not limited by human philosophy. There are a great number of users of the Force who have neither a connection to the Light or Dark Sides. There are the Force Mentallists, who have used the Force for so long, that it is part of their genetic structure.

More than that, there is yet another side to the Force...the Grey Side.

Baadu/ The Grey Jedi
Created by Mike Overbo
The Grey Jedi are a rare breed of Force users. They consciously try to remain neutral in the struggle between the Dark Side and the true ways of the Jedi. This is definitely not an easy task, and it is harder to attain even a fair amount of neutrality when one is working with the
Force. A very specialized Force power is needed for the existence of the Baadu. The correct name for the neutral users of the Force is "Baadu," but they are generally called the Grey Jedi by the people that have heard of them.

The Way of the Baadu was spawned from Biirta Baadu, a human Jedi Master that flirted with the Dark Side for much of his very long, Force using life. He never actually became an adept of the Dark Side, but became quite well versed in its use. Biirta managed to develop a Force power which was able to keep him somewhat free from the clutches of the Dark Side. He was always just beyond reach. During his life-time, he never took on any students or taught anybody his findings, but his journal survived. A few copies of this journal were made, and they exist scattered throughout the galaxy.

The Baadu, for the most part, escaped destruction at the hands of the Emperor and his Jedi Hunters during the Great Purge, because most Baadu can hide their "Force imprint" better than most other Force users. Another Force user might be able to tell that "the Force is (very) strong in this one," but not be able to tell easily that the Baadu is actually a user of the Force.

The Baadu tend to be very solitary. There is no unity in the ranks of the Baadu, and there may or may not be emnity between members of its ranks that meet. The way of the Baadu is a lonely path - for not many
people can stand the dual nature of them. Most Baadu tend to lead "questionable" lives - doing things along the lines of bounty hunting, smuggling, etc. Although these acts are certainly illegal (for
the most part), their evilness can be questioned.

Baadu are VERY rare. No non-Force users should have heard of their existence, and only Jedi Masters/Dark Side Masters should have heard of them. [Alternately, Force users of 30D total Force abilities will
probably know of the Baadu] Even then, these people will not be a "fountain of knowledge" about the Baadu Way.

The Baadu and Dark Side Points/
Light Side Points (Force Side Points)
When a Baadu commits an evil act, they receive a Dark Side point, just like all of the other Force users of the galaxy.

When a Baadu commits a good act, they receive a Light Side point. The principle is the same as for the Dark Side point, except one receives a Light Side point

 

In my estimation, I think that Qui-gon may have been one of the only true light Jedi of the prequel era. In trying to divorce the Jedi order from any kind of passion at all, I would submit that the majority of the Jedi featured in the TPM era are "gray" ones. I think of the Jedi from the TOTJ comics, who were passionate about thier loved ones, and being Jedi. Nomi in her passion for Ulic, Cay in his passion for electronics, all positive. Instead of enforcing positive passionate feelings, they divorced themselves from all passion. It seems to me that the "mavericks" such as Qui-gon, The Dark Woman, and Sharad Hett were the ones who saw the light, and the rest of the Jedi were in the gray.

 

i almost pissed myself when i read that in the comic...they called quigon a grey jedi...finally validation on some old discussion points

 

jedimasterED,

Patricia Jackson describes her Adalric Brandl character as a "gray Jedi." I don't think she means that within Genghis12's definition/description above, but I'm not sure. Only Patty could say.

Personally, I've always found Jedi who seem to gravitate between the boundaries of Light and Dark to be more interesting than the rest.

With respect to Adalric, I dig his agonizing, tragic - "all the great lines" - character - "gray" suits him perfectly!

 

I saw it wasn't too clear. I want to note that...
"From my knowledge on the subject, I can trace Gray Jedi (actual term and everything) back to about 1994, some seven years ago. His SWRPG concepts of the Gray Jedi ("Grey Jedi") have pretty much been a fixture of my Beyond Hyperspace Sourcebook - Shades of Grey section..."

"His" is Mike Overbo. That is, "From my knowledge on the subject, I can trace Gray Jedi back to about 1994, some seven years ago to Mike Overbo. His..."

They're all Mike's definitions, not mine. Personally I don't really think that's what they'd be (people actually going about saying 'I'm a Gray Jedi, come join my Gray Jedi Order.'). However, his material did indeed make for interesting game-playing. They were a fixture for anyone taking part in the SWRPG internet community in the mid-90's.

 

Kyle Katarn probably falls under the category of grey jedi. One of the things holding him back from becoming a master I think.

 

Why would you think one can't be a gray Jedi Master?

 

I think Kyle could be a gray master, but he knows that he is a gray Jedi, and is uncomfortable with teaching anyone else after MOTS.

 

do you guys consider kyp or anakin to be gray jedi?

i can see them as so... but then again they could be a few shades darker than gray also.

 

Anakin Solo is the purest (light) Jedi around in the NJO. He's even a purer Jedi than Luke is. While everyone else has crossed the bridge to the New Jedi order, Anakin seems content with being one of the few real Jedi in the New Jedi Order.

Kyp is definitely a Jedi (or light Jedi). In fact, as a Jedi Master, it's about high time that people (in-universe) give him the respect he's earned in that regard.

 

i am not sure i completely agree with you...

while kyp and anakin have the purest intentions they still feel much hate and agression. this, i feel, puts them a little darker than the light.

Also we have to consider how they use the force... while not as offensive as force lightening... they still use it agressively. We have seen both kill when unnecessary...

i think the jury is still out on these two.

 

Genghis I would love kyle to be a Jedi Master. But Officially he isn't one and never was one. I'll repost some info to you and maybe you can help out.

"Ghengis I posted this in another thread but you never answered maybe you can help here?

Or maybe others can help?

"Good thoughts, ana. I had the honor of talking to dan, and his personal take is that kyle while helping her train, never officially declared himself a master. He was only a knight. He remained a knight until the NJO. Same type of thing as with tionne teaching but never achieving masterhood.

It's sad that one of the first of the new jedi, one trained by a old era jedi master. One who has a been a jedi almost as long as luke has been one, never became a knight. While even being passed up by one of his first trainees.

Though dan did say if anyone can find evidence in the game or manual, a line or something, that proves that kyle's position with mara was more than a knight. He told me to let him know. That he is willing to change his stance, if he can have evidence points towards masterhood. I don't have access to the manuals or the game at the moment to find out what it says.

ghengis can you help, with anything hard evidence besides just idle speculation(It would be appreciated)?"

Kyle could be a grey master, but lot of things are holding him back emotionally.

 

Jinn was a Jedi Master, so if there is such a thing as a Grey Jedi it wouldn't be that holding back Katarn.

As to the whole Gray Jedi matter, we can speculate all we want, but to re-write the entire concept of the Force over a single line of dialogue in a comic seems a bit rash. For all we know the Wookiee was being sarcastic.

 

I don't think all Jedi have to be Masters. Kyle is a Knight, pure and simple. Its what he has to live and struggle with. I personally would not like him to become a Master anytime soon. Him as a confused warrior is enough story material fill me for now. Besides, it makes a better computer game.

I'm glad Gray Jedi are making their way into the spotlight more. We are on the verge of Episode 2 with the greatest tale of darkness vs light in a single person. Its very neat how Obi-Wan's Master was considered an example of Gray, Obi-Wan himself the symbol of Light to the Saga, and Obi-Wan's apprentice the greatest Dark seen in a Jedi. I'm very excited right about now.

On the subject of the comic itself... WOW. I just picked it up tonight and by the time I finished I was looking for more. I love comics more and more. They add so many more characters into the picture in such simple and clear forms of story-telling. And its nice when comics fix problems brought up in past mediums of the EU.

 

Maybe the term Grey Jedi is more of a shop term? Just something the Jedi use for other Jedi who walk a line to close to the dark side. It may not be an actual side of the force just some form of Jedi Jargon.

 

I have never heard about this grey jedi stuff before but it fits in with some ideas i have had
For me this is a jedi who are using the force in a way that are closer to the dark then an ordinary jedi will do.
The jedi is more agressive in the juse of the force.
But this grey jedi are still using the force to do good things.
In my opinion Kyp is a good exampel.
He are not conserned about how he does it but just in getting the resoult (like he sees it) that is the best for the galaxy (or people or planets he are helping)
To me he is balancing between the dark and the light side of the force And therfore a grey jedi

 

What are your takes on The Dark Lady or Quinn Lan Voss or even Ulic 4000 yrs BSW4?
I would think of them as Gray!

Gray - possibly those who listen to the force, but don't use their own judgement to balance the "asking" with their actions!

 

I don't think anyone whos ever had troubles with the Dark Side should be termed a Gray Jedi. Then we would have almost every great character (from Ulic to Luke) as a Gray Jedi. It should be saved for those who are really having problems and stray away from their own order but yet stay in it. Like Qui-Gon and Kyle. They want to be light, I'm sure, but the darkness calls to them more than normal, or it seems that way to other Knights.

 

Of course if a large number of "grey" jedi are fomred they could form a "grey" council. they could change their motto to "We stand between the darkness and the light, we are grey" or more simply perhaps " We live for the one, we die for the one, we tred where others dare not go"





sorry with all the "grey" talk couldn't resist quoting some b5

 

ha! Yeah, and they can fund their own army of Angla Shok

 

Vader strangles people at whim, Maul savagely taunts his victims before murdering them, Sidious plots galactic domination and genocide, Jerec laughs as he beheads and old man. That's the Dark Side.

Qui-Gon gets lippy with Yoda and tries to take two padawans. That's not the Dark Side. That's not even close.

The Jedi gossip like drunken old women. They call Qui-Gon a Grey Jedi, make up a demeaning nickname for the Dark Woman (according to one source), and pick on Quinlan Vos since he was a little boy. None of these characters are anywhere near the Dark Side.

 

Intresting. Indeed, with the character who this term is used to describe, we could certaily come to the assumption that "Grey Jedi" are rogues in the order. Yet at the same time it could mean those who walk the razor's edge between light and dark sides, without giving themselves over fully to one or the other.

Qui-Gon, at times, seems to act more on instinct than on knowledge. Part of the code could be interpurted(spelling please) to suggest that Jedi must always be knowledgeable about the situation their getting into. Otherwise they would be ignorant of the potential danger. Yet even that interpurtation(spelling please) fails in light of the fact that there is no possible way to know everything that one will get themselves into. The are always so many variables (spelling please) that can not be taken into account. For example:

You study a resturant for a week without going there. The studies are based on video and things you read and heard about the place. Always things are a certain way. So you're positive you know what to expect. But then when you show up, things are not what you expect. Service is slower than what your studies suggested due to the fact that half the serving staff is not there. Or maybe a really famous person shows up and folks are trying to get a look at them. Or a fire breaks out by accident.

Any number of factors could contribute to make things not what your "knowledge" would suggest they should be. And that's the same with the Jedi. Despite what the interpurtation(spelling please) of this part of the code may be, their would be any number of things that could go wrong. Therefore, knowledge would have to mean something else, such as knowing how to deal with almost any situation that may come up.

Moreover, we can turn to various sources and see points where the Jedi, even the Jedi Council, would move in where they had little or no knowledge of what to expect. If we take the interpurtaion of one line of the code to mean that a Jedi always knows what's going on and is never surprised, surprise means ignorance, then in these situations, the Jedi were most ignorant. So at times the Jedi, even members of the council, must act purely on instinct as they posses little or no knowledge of the situation they may be getting themselves into. However, once in such a situation, they would be foolish not to try and gather knowledge to help them out.

Therefore, it seems that we can't say that rogue Jedi are termed Grey Jedi because they act on instinct. Instinct, it would seem, is as much a part of being a Jedi as the ability to use the Force (with one noteable exception). Thusly, we find ourselves asking that if rogue Jedi are deemed to be Grey Jedi by the council, then what exactly is it that makes them so?

Genghis has provided us with a good look at the term. However, sad as it is to say, many may view it as predating the more modern meaning. Perhaps the meaning has changed. Or, which is also likely, the meaning used in the Stark Hyperspace Wars is taken from the sources Genghis gave us.

 

up.

 

Down. And shake it all around.