Had Mace found Sidious' "shatterpoint" before Anakin stepped in?

Not sure if this has been brought up, so MODS, please don't strike me down with all of your hatred if this is redundant!

My goal is not to have this devolve into another "Mace vs. Palpy" or "Was Mace the right man..." thread...

Has anyone else postulated that Mace in fact had found Palpatine's "shatterpoint" when he discovered how to reflect the Sith lightning back on the Sith master?

IMO, Prophecy or no Prophecy, Palpatine was toast if Anakin hadn't shown up. To my knowledge, no one else was able to figure this trick out (although Obi-Wan was able to block Dooku's and Yoda demonstrates he can absorb and deflect it using the Force).

 

In the novelization of ROTS, I think Mace just found it and Anakin came in and ruined it.

Good Stuff

 

Apparantly yes - he knew that Anakin was Sidious' shatterpoint.

However he failed to see Anakins...and we know what happens next.

(EU - "so uncivilised")

 

Mace found and used Palpatine's Shatterpoint against him, then Anakin came in. He didn't find the boy's Shatterpoint, which is why he couldn't see what was going to happen.

 

Yes, I believe he did correctly discern Sidious' "Shatterpoint", but it is invalid to say that "Prophecy or no Prophecy, Palpatine was toast if Anakin hadn't shown up." First of all, IMO Anakin is Palpatine's Shatterpoint because of the Prophecy. This is like saying, "Dream or no dream, Padme was going to die"--without the dream, Anakin would not have been so desperate to save Padme that he ends up turning to the Darkside and dooming Padme. The two are so tightly interlinked it is invalid to have one without the other. If Anakin hadn't had the dream, Padme would not have died, but if Padme wasn't going to die, Anakin wouldn't have the dream. In the same way, if Anakin was not Palpatine's shatterpoint, he wouldn't have been the Chosen One; and if Anakin wasn't the Chosen One, he would not have been Palpatine's shatterpoint. You can't separate these facts because they are symbiant.

Secondly, and more obviously, it's an invalid statement because if you understand that Anakin is Sidious' shatterpoint, then you haven't hit the Shatterpoint until Anakin arrives. Note that in the novel (which is where Shatterpoints are discussed), Mace is at an impasse and unable to take an advantage over Sidious until he senses that Anakin the Shatterpoint has arrived. This is shown (albeit in lesser detail) in the film in that the fight is roughly equal up until the moment that Anakin arrives in his speeder.

So, yes Mace found Sidious' "shatterpoint", but that Shatterpoint is Anakin.

 

"(EU - "so uncivilised")"


Good Stuff

 

Shatterpoint is a pretty decent novel and it's neat to think about that scene in light of that novel. I believe Sidious' shatterpoint was discovered by Mace but what was clouded and completely unpredictable was Anakin's turn to the dark side.

 

You could argue that Palpatine was shattered along with the window.
Palpatine was exposed by Mace - this is metaphorically represented by the removal of this window, the barrier between the sedate art deco stylings of a Chancellor's office and the raging storm beyond it.
The membrane separating the truth from the lie.







Then again, the winow might have gone just so that Lucas could show someone being thrown to their death out of a 20 storey building with Sith lightning because it looks cool....

 

It's been awhile since I read the novelization, and I know I poured through the thing so I might be mistaken..

but I thought that Mace discovered that Anakin is Palpatine's Shatterpoint. That the Chancellor trusts in the boy completely and this was confusing to the Jedi Master. He thought that meant that Anakin truly was the Chosen One and fully expected him to step in and fulfull the Prophecy when he arrived in the Chancellor's office.

Mace was right of course. Palpatine's complete trust in the usurption of Anakin Skywalker was his undoing. It just took another 20+ years to sort itself out.

 

Mace could have been confused as to what Anakin being Mace's shatterpoint actually meant. Anakin revealed Palpatine as the Sith Lord. Maybe he thought that was the shatterpoint.

Carnage

 

according to the novelization, anakin was actually watching the duel for quite some time from the shadows. DURING said battle, it is stated that the impassed COULD have continued forever IF vaapad were windu's ONLY power. he then searched for sids' shatterpoint and the faultlines of it lead him to a spot in the darkness....a fear shrouded anakin. at that point, windu lead the fight over to the window and things progressed from there.
he never did figure out anakin's shatterpoint, but ironically enough, why exactly would he be looking for it anyhow? i mean, it never occurred to him that anakin would/should/COULD be the enemy AND in conflict, and that would be the ONLY reason he'd be looking for anakin's shatterpoint, correct?

 

Well said, lordmorpheus.

 

I wouldn't call Anakin himself the shatterpoint in the timeframe and context of this scene in the movie. Quite the contrary, it is his weakness that provides strength to Palpatine when all's said and done. We could, however, call Anakin's presence the shatterpoint.

Your sentiments lend more strength to "The Presence of Anakin" being the shatterpoint, not Anakin in and of himself. If Anakin had stayed in the shadows, it appears that Mace would have won the fight with his Sith lightning counterattack (conjecture, since it didn't happen this way). The fall of Anakin to Vader inevitably means that the chance to capitalize on the shatterpoint is gone, and hence Mace is destroyed. "The boy you trained, gone he is! Consumed by Darth Vader!"

We have additional supporting data for this argument since Luke is unable to destroy the Emperor without catalyzing the re-emergence of Anakin from the Sith.

 

Well if we are talking about the NOVEL here, then yes Mace found Palps shatterpoint ala The Chosen One for he is the ONLY ONE that could beat Palps.


Mace said it in the novel. "Anakin help me!!, It's your destiny." Mace cried.

That's when Palpy had to do something for Ani not to help MAce. So he collapsed and begged.

Mace wanted to kill failing to see the hold the Sith Master had over Anakin.


Check Mate Sidious.

 

Yep; Mace did use his "fault-line"-sensing abilities to get the opening to disarm Sidious, too, but that of course wasn't the shatterpoint, just a weakness he could detect with the same "sense." When Anakin came to Mace in the novelization, Mace "looked" at him in the Force and saw him as a super-tense knot.

But later when Mace felt fear, and thought he had the upper hand, Sidious said something along the lines of "You fool - you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Not really giving a different answer, obviously; I'm just adding what I remember...

 

I've only browsed through the novelization and I seem to remember something about Mace finding and holding Sidious' shatterpoint in his grasp. As he was about to crush Sidious via the shatterpoint he realized that he had forgotten or overlooked Anakin's shatterpoint and that led to his demise.

Even if he had found the shatterpoint, his reluctance or skewed approach to using it led to his death.

 

I thought the book was very clear that Mace found Palpatine's shatterpoint. It said that Mace broke the window in order to take Palpatine onto the slippery ledge and cut his lightsaber in half. The shatterpoint was Palpatine's lightsaber and the slippery ledge.

Ironically, the book also said that although Mace found Palpatine's shatterpoint, Palpatine had already found Anakin's shatterpoint; that being Padme. The real shatterpoint was not Palpatine's, but Anakin's that made the difference in the way things panned out. Palpatine bought the referee(Anakin)off before the fight even began. Hence the line: "Fool, do you think the fear you feel is mine?" Palpatine knew the fight was ultimately his because Anakin's shatterpoint was the fear of losing his wife. As always, Palpatine was one step ahead of everyone else including shatterpoints.

 

The shatterpoint was Palpatine's lightsaber and the slippery ledge.

Interesting. So was Mace thinking Palpatine's skills with a lightsaber were inferior even though he was the Sith Master?

 

The book doesn't say that but it does say that the fight was at an impasse IF Vaapad were his only skill. The book clearly states that Mace's Vaapad and Palpatine's fighting were equal. Mace had a "shatterpoint" technique up his sleeve and it gave him the advantage to cut Palpatine's saber in half. Unfortunately, Mace didn't know that Palpatine knew the "shatterpoint" technique as well and already used it on Anakin.

The point is that the book clearly shows that Mace's lightsaber skills were equal to Sidious's. Nothing about Mace thinkint that Palpatine was inferior. The book does state that Mace broke the glass purposefully because he knew it would lead to Palpatine's shatterpoint...that being a slip on the ledge so he could cut his saber in half. The movie actually reinforces this because once Mace breaks the window, Palpatine is all squinty-eyed and his hair is blowing around in his face while Mace is wide eyed and alert and cuts his saber in half. Mace broke the window and in effect kicked sand in Palpatine's eyes and found his shatterpoint. Palpatine, on the otherhand, was already prepared for something like this because he already knew Anakin's shatterpoint and then started working it for all it was worth.

 

SAND-CRAWLER, that was an excellent post. Seriously. I find myself looking differently at that scene now in light of your post.

 

Aside from the "Anakin as shatterpoint" business, my initial thought was actually that Mace believed Palpatine's shatterpoint to be the Darkside itself (hence the reflecting of Sith energies back onto him). Pure speculation, but maybe Mace saw that by disarming his opponent and smashing the window, he would force Palpatine to resort to pure darkside powers which could be used as a weapon against the Sith lord. Interestingly enough, Anakin does the same bit in ROTJ briefly before tossing the Emperor into the reactor pit (we can see the lightning cascading all over Vader and the Emperor), and the Emperor's faith in the darkside eventually does lead to his undoing. --note to self, NEVER construct any bottomless reactor shafts in personal inner sanctuary...--

I guess a few things could then be interpreted as shatterpoints.

 

Perhaps Anakin was the shatterpoint to the Force itself and neither side could predict it given he was perfectly aligned in the middle, not present to the light or dark side.

 

That's a good way of putting it. Though in the novelization it's storming while the duel is happening, whereas there's just the hard wind from being so high up. In fact, this put the whole Mace vs Palpatine debate in a different light.

 

I wouldn't think the weather has an effect on the Force. The Force isn't a sunny day only tool.

 

No, I was pointing out another difference between the book and the film.