[HCSF] Anakin/Vader as the Tragic Hero

It?s common knowledge that GL worked with Joseph Campbell regarding the basic SW story back in the days of the OT. Campbell was an expert on Hero mythology. I don?t think people really generally stop to think about this, but it?s so important in understanding Anakin?s character. Please bear with me, I know these explainations are long. I think it?s completely fascinating how Anakin fits so well into the Aristotle/Shakespeare Tragic Hero model. Imagine George Lucas writing a character on par with Macbeth, because that?s what really Anakin Skywalker is.

Regarding Aristotle:

The Greek philosopher Aristotle gave the most famous extended definition of tragedy in his Ars Poetica . Shakespeare's tragic works are similar. These are the characteristics:

1. A faulty or corrupt society, or at least some particular characters who are decidedly more wicked than the tragic hero.
2. A tragic hero: by Aristotle's definition, a man who is neither completely evil nor good, but somewhere in between. The audience will usually identify or sympathize with the tragic hero, instinctively.
3. The Hero?s tragic flaw: (a) a chronic shortcoming in character, often called a "tragic flaw." In Shakespeare it is usually related, paradoxically, to the tragic hero's ideals of some sort ; and it leads him into metaphorical "madness" which is barely distinguishable (if at all) from real madness. A particular result of this idealism/madness is that the hero will imagine the people around him as worse than they are and ironically he becomes more "corrupt" or dangerous than the social corruption he deplores. (b) a specific mistaken act, related to or caused by the "flaw."
4. The mistaken act will prove harmful to someone so close to the tragic hero as to be almost a "part of himself"; the beginning of a gradual suicide.
5. The hero discovers the mistake, and suffers and dies for it.
6. The full effect, as Aristotle had suggested, is to raise and purge the emotions of pity and fear in the audience , a sort of therapeutic cleansing of the imagination.

Shakespeare's tragic heroes generally fit the Aristotelian definition. Their moral failings vary greatly, but the tragic "mistake" is most typically associated with some sort of idealism that the hero believes himself to be practicing; some "code of behavior". As Shakespearean comedy suggests, a rigid belief in the rightness of one's own course can be dangerous. Appearance does not correspond to reality , and that paradox destroys the tragic hero, who remains blind to it until after the reversal of his fortunes. The hero's "discovery" is only that appearances have played him a dirty trick; he does not discover the part his own blindness had in the tragedy. In fact, it shows a great persistence in his character that he typically tries to vindicate his idealized self-image in a final flurry of violence and/or suicide. The paradox of tragedy is that a catastrophic change results from the blind constancy of one or more persons. Nevertheless, tragedy reaffirms the basic order of the natural universe, after purging a "mistaken" understanding of it which we (the audience) have first sympathized with (so that we pity ) and then felt threatened by (so that we fear ).
© http://smith.hanover.edu/trag.html


Regarding Shakespeare:

I found some good explanations of Shakespearean tragic heros (he used Aristotle?s general model). For example, Macbeth is unoquivically a tragic hero according to scholars. The three factors that lead to his ruin are 1. A prophecy- which when planted into his head causes him to believe he should be king and he must do whatever neccesary to do that 2. The influence of an even more evil character- Lady Macbeth 3. His unrelentless ambition. I think all would agree that Anakin is an eerie parallel.

This is a really great explaination I found in regards to Shakespeare. If you take the ?acts? and think of them as the Star Wars films, you?ll see an interesting similarity, especially from the description of act three. It?s from: http://global.cscc.edu/engl/264/TragedyL

 

I definatly view Anakin/Vader as the tragic hero and that's the reason why he's my favorite character because he's just so deep and a character as you said on par with Macbeth. I hope that eventually that Star Wars will get the recognition it deserves as one of the great movie series (prequels included).

 

Well done.

The only problem with threads like this is that there's really not much to debate: your quotes and points are totally on point.

 

Well, yes Maul ... but when this was over at the 3SA people had some serious problems with it. Especially putting "hero" and "tragic" together. Perhaps people here are just more intelligent?

 

The only problem with threads like this is that there's really not much to debate: your quotes and points are totally on point.

Well of course, G_M! That's the best type of thread to start... No one calling you a moron or anything like that!


Perhaps people here are just more intelligent?

Do you even have to ask, RS77?!?!

 

Great Post there rebelScumm77. This thouught has also been explored on the saga site. If you want check it out here. . While there make sure you read the posts by TheOzhaggis very detailed, very well written, and very enjoyable. There is alot of indepth analysis of Campbell view of mythology, not just the tragic hero.

6. The full effect, as Aristotle had suggested, is to raise and purge the emotions of pity and fear in the audience , a sort of therapeutic cleansing of the imagination.

These are ways we could defitenly feel regarding Anakin after ep iii, according to GL:
Pity for what he went through
Fear, because someone so good, could go so bad.

 

I very much agree with this, Rebel.
Ever since ROTJ, I've always seen Anakin/Vader in a more heroic light. The concept of redeemable evil is a very interesting one.

I'm so glad that PT Anakin hasn't turned out to be some 6'6" granite-chinned superhero, casually beating every obstacle in his path. He's become a much more interesting character when you see what his life has been like in TPM and AOTC. Ep3 should be facinating.

 

I know this has been discussed some in the Saga forum. In fact I had a topic about it there awhile back too.

What I find especially interesting here though, are the clues about Episode III. In the "3rd Act":

Contributing to, and furthering the obsession and the control of the tragic flaw are misreadings, supernatural suggestion, and accident or chance. Things happen a split second too late: the hero operates on what he believes to be the case rather than what he actually knows to be the case. Soon they are one and the same thing to him.

As the flaw and the misreadings continue, new conflicts and complications arise which bring about the death or gradual alienation of all forms of support for the hero, so that by the end, he must face the opposing forces and the responsibility for his actions alone. What we see during this process of alienation and isolation is suffering, sleeplessness, rage, confusion, hallucination, and violence as the internal conflicts intensify to an almost unbearable pitch.

I put in bold what I think the most interesting points are. What do you guys think the actual scenarios might be?

 

Yeah, I like the comment on the difference between perception and reality.

That's one reason why I thought it would be even more tragic if Padme doesn't die but Anakin thinks she does - if he had believed Obi-Wan, he might not have turned.

But Anakin believes Padme is dead and either Obi-Wan is responsible, or Obi-Wan was holding him back in some form or another.

There's also the possibility of perception/reality with Palpatine/Sidious - Anakin might think at first that Palps is just trying to get things done, although that may be a case of Anakin seeing what he wants to see...

 

I gotta agree w/ you there Garth, looks like there is a first for everything, hah!!

Anyway I think GL has done a great job w/ the metaphor of sight:

~There is the blindness that the Jedi are suffering b/c of the dark side of the force.

~Padme's bodygurad seeing out of only one eye.

~Qui-Jonn telling Obi about a cpov.

~Anakin's visions of his mother while he sleeps.

~Yoda could only hear Anakin, and not being able to help him.

I am sure that Palps might tell Obi to look into his feelings, trust them, and see what they can accoplish together.

 

Yes... Blindness is really important. I helps explaining why the Jedis never saw anything coming until it was too late.

Yes Anakin is definitely the tragic hero. I agree with the elements in Aristotle's definition. However I hope Anakin's fate does not turn out to be like Macbeth's. I never felt anything for him and never really understood his actions. I hope Anakin's choice of the dark side will feel, well, justified in a way. Kind of like with the Tuskens. You don't agree with his actions and are horrified with them while at the same time you understand where he's coming from. And the thing is that you're wondering if, put in the same situation as Anakin, you wouldn't end up doing something similar. And that's why I want to see for Episode III.
I just hope Anakin doesn't end up in the suit ONLY because of power and desire to rule.

 

"You don't agree with his actions and are horrified with them while at the same time you understand where he's coming from. And the thing is that you're wondering if, put in the same situation as Anakin, you wouldn't end up doing something similar."

Very well put, padlei...

Anakin is my favorite character-thru the WHOLE saga-even as Darth Vader. The reason is because out of all the characters, he is the most complex. He IS good. But then he also IS bad, but then again-he really IS good, and as we see in ROTJ, in the end the good in him prevails. when I tell people Anakin's my favorite, I hear so many people wonder WHY! "He's the BAD guy!" they say...NO he's NOT, really. we ALL have times where we let evil thoughts and actions get the best of us. with Anakin, this is just exaggerated. it's a representation of when we take wrong turns in our OWN lives...
In a time of turmoil, and he in his most vulnerable age-where he is growing, learning and shaping the man he would become, it was all the more easy for him to be seduced-by ANYTHING that offered even MORE power than he already had! and during his years as Darth Vader, he is simply, in a way brainwashed. But we can see, in episodes V and VI especially, that the good inside NEVER really left him...he is redeemed by his NATURAL love for his son/children, and that is what saves him and allows him to finally fulfill the prophecy, and bring balance to the force. In light of that, It should be easy for people who know his life to see him as a hero, and like Anakin for who he REALLY is...

 

I just hope Anakin doesn't end up in the suit ONLY because of power and desire to rule.

Agreed, and I truly believe there will be more to it than that. The very existence of Darth Vader is really the ultimate irony and one that can't be ignored. Anakin was a slave, one way or another, his entire life. He was attracted to the Dark Side, in large part, because of his desire for some kind of freedom. And in doing this, he becomes more of a slave than he ever was- a slave to the Dark Side and Palpatine. I hope something happens that really drives that point home- so the suit becomes more than just a symbol of power, but also one of servitude.

Episode III is the climax of the Saga. Everything after it is on the Falling Action part of the model, eventually leading to the Tragic Recognition. The way we feel about Vader will really be determined here- our OT view will be changed forever. Rick McCallum says we'll feel "shocked, saddened, and betrayed" about Anakin at the end, and GL says we'll feel "pity". So I have to believe there really must be more to it than the desire for power and revenge.

 

I hope so... But the question is, if it is not only for power, will Padme play a part in his fall?
Is it included in the definition of the tragic hero? I would hate it if Anakin did not give his wife any second thought.

 

I am sure, one way or another, Padme will play a role. How could she not? She's the single most important aspect of his life.

The Tragic Hero definition does not give any specifics, but you can see where Padme would fit in..

3. The Hero?s tragic flaw: (a) a chronic shortcoming in character, often called a "tragic flaw." In Shakespeare it is usually related, paradoxically, to the tragic hero's ideals of some sort ; and it leads him into metaphorical "madness" which is barely distinguishable (if at all) from real madness. A particular result of this idealism/madness is that the hero will imagine the people around him as worse than they are and ironically he becomes more "corrupt" or dangerous than the social corruption he deplores. (b) a specific mistaken act, related to or caused by the "flaw."

4. The mistaken act will prove harmful to someone so close to the tragic hero as to be almost a "part of himself"; the beginning of a gradual suicide.



We know his tragic flaws, but the question remains for Episode III, what exactly IS the mistaken act- Padme is related to it somehow. Is it the decision to turn to the Dark Side, or is it something else, something more personal?

 

I was thinking about that as well when I read that passage!
Would explain the self-loathing a lot better. I mean what would make him hate himself that much? Do you think he will be somehow the cause even an indirect one of her death? Wow. Can't write tonight...
I'd say that is something more personal... Something that puts him in a real blind rage... That's why I did not really want a Macbeth analogy that much... Macbeth is only driven by ambition. I would hate Anakin to be like that!
Still. Can't write...

 

5. The hero discovers the mistake, and suffers and dies for it.

Oh we all know Anakin suffers for it. I think that's what I look at him as a tragic hero. He dies for the mistakes he made.

 

Okay.....

In INTREST of a healthy debate: I disagree COMPLETELY that Anakin is in the Aristotle mode of Tragic Hero.

I see him as a Redeemed Hero.

and I will break it down to where it doesn't work.

1. A faulty or corrupt society, or at least some particular characters who are decidedly more wicked than the tragic hero.

Agreed....Anakin is brought into a galaxy that is disinegrating

2. A tragic hero: by Aristotle's definition, a man who is neither completely evil nor good, but somewhere in between. The audience will usually identify or sympathize with the tragic hero, instinctively.

Disagree The reason being is this...Lucas story is about choices...of how a GOOD kid can go bad. There was a reason why Lucas made him a child...there is a sense of innocent that must be corrupted. Anakin choices leads him to the darkside...not his inner make up.


3. The Hero?s tragic flaw: (a) a chronic shortcoming in character, often called a "tragic flaw." In Shakespeare it is usually related, paradoxically, to the tragic hero's ideals of some sort ; and it leads him into metaphorical "madness" which is barely distinguishable (if at all) from real madness. A particular result of this idealism/madness is that the hero will imagine the people around him as worse than they are and ironically he becomes more "corrupt" or dangerous than the social corruption he deplores. (b) a specific mistaken act, related to or caused by the "flaw."

Agree somewhat Although I agree that Anakin does have "flaws" that make him make the choices...I believe a lot of ther factors are at play, than just his views on the universe. Ankin does thinks himself as weak and thus it is his failing that needs to be changed.

On the other hand, he does believe that the system doesn't work.

4. The mistaken act will prove harmful to someone so close to the tragic hero as to be almost a "part of himself"; the beginning of a gradual suicide.

Undetermined We don't know IF Anakin will hurt anyone close to him. Luke and Liea, while he physically harmed his children, were also fighting him. Anakin may or MAY not be responsible for harming anyone close to him. This we may need to see.

5. The hero discovers the mistake, and suffers and dies for it.
Disagree: While he does suffer from his decision- He fufils his duty and destiny by returning the balance to the force. Anakin completes what he set out to do...He finally choses NOT to be selfish...and wilingly lays down his life for his son.

This is NOT Macbeth...with the trees moving closer to the castle. Suddingly realizing that he is doomed to die, because of murder. Unlike Macbeth, Anikin is not forced to death, but embraces, redeeming himself.

6. The full effect, as Aristotle had suggested, is to raise and purge the emotions of pity and fear in the audience , a sort of therapeutic cleansing of the imagination.

Aristotle was an idiot....IMHOThe man saw no shades of grey in ANYTHING. He believed that bigger rocks fell faster than smaller rocks. Thank god for Gallieo! It is clear that a Tragic Hero should inspire fear and pity in people and KEEP IT THERE. Whats the point of bringing it up if you don't try to process it? Really...what a moron.

To whit: We do have the concepts of Protangonist/Antagonist now. Thus eschewing the more "traditional" roles that is applyed to term "hero" Anakin is a Protaganoist, who has fallen to the Darkside by mid point of the "act" It is in the Third plot point, Anakin chooses to save Luke...thus redeeming himself.

And quite franly, there should be a new "category" The Redeemed Hero

 

2. A tragic hero: by Aristotle's definition, a man who is neither completely evil nor good, but somewhere in between. The audience will usually identify or sympathize with the tragic hero, instinctively.

Disagree The reason being is this...Lucas story is about choices...of how a GOOD kid can go bad. There was a reason why Lucas made him a child...there is a sense of innocent that must be corrupted. Anakin choices leads him to the darkside...not his inner make up.

Yes, but by AOTC he is not purely a "good kid". He has good and evil qualities. The thing about Aristotle is that you can't take these completely literally. There is an element of interpretation, I'm not pretending that there isn't. From the very fact that Lucas is telling far more of the story than Shakespeare or Aristotle would have, you have to give slightly more leeway. But if this were a Shakespearean tragedy we would have started with late in Episode II and Anakin would be neither completely good nor evil. And yes, it is his choices that lead him, but there is also his inner makeup- or tragic flaws, as well as cirumstance. That's why we can identify or sympathize with him.


3. The Hero?s tragic flaw: (a) a chronic shortcoming in character, often called a "tragic flaw." In Shakespeare it is usually related, paradoxically, to the tragic hero's ideals of some sort ; and it leads him into metaphorical "madness" which is barely distinguishable (if at all) from real madness. A particular result of this idealism/madness is that the hero will imagine the people around him as worse than they are and ironically he becomes more "corrupt" or dangerous than the social corruption he deplores. (b) a specific mistaken act, related to or caused by the "flaw."

Agree somewhat Although I agree that Anakin does have "flaws" that make him make the choices...I believe a lot of ther factors are at play, than just his views on the universe. Ankin does thinks himself as weak and thus it is his failing that needs to be changed.

On the other hand, he does believe that the system doesn't work.

Yes, there are a lot of factors, but if there was any part that perfectly describes Anakin, this is it. "Ideals" being the key word... you think Padme is idealistic? Hoo boy, Anakin has got it in spades. His notion of "doing what is good for the universe" becomes completely corrupted by Palpatine, eventually leading him to be so confused as to be almost mad. He then sees the Jedi as corrupt and dangerous, purposefully trying to ruin his life- he's projecting himself onto them without realizing it.

4. The mistaken act will prove harmful to someone so close to the tragic hero as to be almost a "part of himself"; the beginning of a gradual suicide.

Undetermined We don't know IF Anakin will hurt anyone close to him. Luke and Liea, while he physically harmed his children, were also fighting him. Anakin may or MAY not be responsible for harming anyone close to him. This we may need to see.

Yes, we don't know exactly what will happen yet, but this is the pattern. And this step takes place before Luke and Leia would have come into the picture, I believe. Regardless if he actually physically hurts this person, it is still he who is responisble, directly or indirectly for it. The definition says specifically his "mistaken act" is responsible for it, not him necessarily. My guess is that it's Padme. He may not actually kill her himself, but as a result of a choice he makes, she dies.

5. The hero discovers the mistake, and suffers and dies for it.
Disagree: While he does suffer from his decision- He fufils his duty and destiny by returning the balance to the force. Anakin completes what he set out to do...He finally choses NOT to be selfish...and wilingly lays down his life for his son.

This is NOT Macbeth...with the trees moving closer to the castle. Suddingly realizing that he is doomed to die, because of murder. Unlike Macbeth, Ani

 

All I keep thinking about is everyone saying " it's just a movie." haha... I use threads like this to justify my geekiness.

Garth I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment. Anakin blames Obi Wan (the order) for everything that goes wrong. We see touches of that in ep II when he is talking to Padme about being held back. The Jedi Order (which anakin embodies as Obi Wan) keeps him from going to his mother she dies. Obi Wan(the order) will do something in ep III related to Padmes death or what Anakin percieves as her death. Making him turn to the one true voice of clarity in all of this Palpatine.

The two people in the world he loved the most killed by someone he thought was a father figure to him. Sounds like a tragic hero to me because we as an audience know that he is mistaken in his hatred.

You can't take the comparison to Aristotle so literally it is a mold for the story not the absolute. You can see where Lucas got his inspiration, and if not you are just as blind as the Jedi in the PT.

Excellent post Rebelscum77.

 

You can't take the comparison to Aristotle so literally it is a mold for the story not the absolute. You can see where Lucas got his inspiration, and if not you are just as blind as the Jedi in the PT.

LOL... love it.

Excellent post Rebelscum77.

Why, thank you. I have a geek obsession with this

 

Ok, well I've posted the everywhere else, might as well do it here too
I didn't come up with the original 12 steps, but here's my take on it.


Anakin Skywalker: 12 Steps to Becoming a Tragic Hero

1) Man of High Estate.
We have a man of high estate, a king, prince, general, etc.  Often, our first views of the hero are skewed through the eyes and views of another, giving us a hint at their potential and greatness.
In TPM we see Anakin's potential through Shmi and Qui-Gon's eyes. "The Force is unusually strong with him." "He was meant to help you." This hints at Anakin's potential. When he becomes a Jedi, he is now part of a highly respected and powerful Order. And not only that, but we are told that he may have the greatest potential of any in that Order.


2) A Flaw in Character.
We then become aware of a driving force within the hero, something that often at least borders on obsession.  We will also witness the nature of the inner torment he goes through as he follows his obsession.
In AOTC we see Anakin as pretty arrogant, for whatever reason. He blames everyone but himself. He lets it slip that he feels he should be the most powerful Jedi ever. He says it because of torment over his mother's death, where if only he was "more powerful" or Obi-Wan wasn't "holding him back" he could have saved her. It also becomes clear that he just feels too much. If the Jedi realized the extent that Anakin was controlled by his feelings, they would see it as an obsession. The impact of his emotions (about his mother, Padme, Jedi) create all kinds of turmoil in him, but he is unsuccessful at combating them.

3) Intrusion of Time and a Sense of Urgency.
As the inner and outer conflicts the hero faces as he pursues his course intensify, we see time becoming more and more important.  A sense of urgency develops with the plot and the conflict that not only creates tension, but also creates the effect of a kind of steamrolling inevitability regarding the hero's fall that he has put into motion himself.
This is fairly self explainatory. Beginning with his reunion with Padme and his slaughter of the Tuskens, he has put into motion his fall to the DS. Time becomes very important...events happen quickly. This will really been seen in Episode III.

4) Misreadings and Rationalizations.
Contributing to, and furthering the obsession and the control of the tragic flaw, are misreadings, supernatural suggestion, and accident or chance.  Things happen a split-second too late: the hero operates on what he believes to be the case rather than what he actually knows to be the case.  Soon they are one and the same thing to him.
The misreadings deal with both Obi-Wan/Jedi lack of foresight into Anakin, as well Anakin blaming his misfortune on the Jedi. Suggestion is coming both from Palpatine and the Prophecy, which are telling him he's "The Chosen One" and "the most gifted Jedi I have ever known." This is feeding into his arrogance. Accident and chance is a huge theme in both TPM and AOTC, everything that happens, from Anakin winning the pod race to having his mother die in his arms, is because of chance. The last part about acting on what he thinks to be the case and then not being able to tell the difference is PERFECT for Episode III. Palpy's going to feed him all kinds of misinformation and after awhile he won't be able to tell what's up or down.

5) Murder, Exile, Alienation of Enemies and Allies.
As the story continues, conflicts arise which cause the death or alienation of all of the hero's former friends, allies, and/or mentors, eventually removing all forms of support for the hero. He must face things alone.
He begins removing Jedi support in Episode II by carrying on an illicit relationship. There's no one he can turn for guidance. Padme carrys the same burden, but there's probably someone she can trust, Anakin most certainly can't tell the Jedi. Eventually his alientation from them becomes more than just about his marriage, culminating in Epi

 

WOW, Rebelscum77,

"Impressive...MOST impressive..."

It seems you have CLEARLY done your HOMEWORK!!!

 

Indeed I have... this is obviously one of my favorite parts of the Saga. I'm really fascinated by character archetypes and how they haven't really changed in thousands of years. For some reason they really do tap into a humanity that everyone can identify with.

 

>>>>Well it's debateble when Vader makes the realization that Palpatine must be destroyed and that his fall to the DS was due to his own naivity. It could come sometime in ESB when he offers Luke a chance to rule together, or it may not come until he makes the decision to kill the Emperor rather than let Luke die. Whenever he makes the decision he most certainly knows it will lead to his death.

I think this is the first step of his realisation.

Bear in mind that Vader no longer considers himself to be Anakin Skywalker. And yet he does consider himself to be Luke Skywalkers father...

I can't find the quote right now, but Lucas said something about the "I am your father" revelation being seen by future audiences as a surprise- not because the fact Darth Vader is his father is a surprise, as they'll already know that, but the fact that Vader tells him that he's his father is a surprise. This theory would certainly fit in with that plan.

All Lucas needs to hammer it home in Episode III is a cyborg of some kind who feels no kind of connection to his grievous, er, previous life...