[HCSF] New Palpatine dialogue in ESB

In Vader's hologram contact with Palpatine in the ESB DVD, Palpatine says he has "no doubt that (Luke) is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker". Vader asks how this can be so, and the Emperor tells Vader to search his feelings.

So, does this suggest that Anakin does not know he has a son, or is it something that he has kept from Palpatine?

Also, does this suggest that Vader's identity will not be revealed until ESB, and not in RotS?

That second one is a stretch, but I'm still grasping straws there.

 

Though I haven't yet had time () to see ESB or ROTJ, the new dialogue is interesting.

Why not leave it the way it was with Ian doing the scenes?

Either way, I'm sure Vader was keeping the knowledge from Palpatine. Remember ROTJ "Are your feelings quite clear on this Lord Vader?"

And Ben: "The Emperor knew, as I did, that if Anakin were to have any children, they would be a threat to him."

Plus, the nature of the Sith is to scheme to be the #1 Bad Guy - Vader's keeping his cards close to his chest on purpose.

 

So, does this suggest that Anakin does not know he has a son, or is it something that he has kept from Palpatine?


I definitely think Anakin knows, and he is trying to hide it from Palpatine. Palpatine's tone of voice when he tells Vader to search his feelings comes off like he knows that Anakin is playing dumb about Luke.

When he finds out about Luke, we'll have to wait for ROTS and see. I've always held that after the trench run, when Vader observed that Luke is strong in the Force, he had plenty of time (after being sent hurtling into space by Han) to meditate on who that was.

Isn't there a quote somewhere by GL about preserving the mystery of Vader being Luke's father, so future generations watching 1-6 would still have that huge shock at the ESB revelation? Or am I dreaming that?

 

That's what I was thinking too guys, great points. Why else would Vader have been so serious about finding Luke, and mentioning him by name on the command ship?

I like the new dialogue, it shows more insight.

Anyway, I've always hoped for Vader's identity not to come out in RotS. Sure those of us 'in the know' know, but like you said, Banal, future generations should get to be surprized.

I've never seen Lucas quoted, however.

 

Vader's keeping his cards close to his chest on purpose.

He might even have a special slot on his chest plate where he keeps his cards.

 

Nnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo...<breath>...oooooooooooooo!

That scene of Luke and Vader - Luke balancing desprately on a pipe while Vader makes his little speech, is the coolest star wars scene ever. But HALF the reason it's so cool is because that's when we hear this ridiculous revelation, that the badguy is the goodguy's dad. It's been immitated, homaged, parodied, picked apart, referenced, satired, and just plain watched. And now i find out they're ruining the surpise??

Listen, i don't mind Geedo shooting first.
I don't have a crap to give what Anakin's ghost's age is when he materializes in Jedi.
And i'm actually glad they redubbed Fett's lines.

THIS on the other hand...

I mean, If you really, really wanted ep1 to be the first SW movie you watch, then i can see it not being so bad. You'd already know that, Anakin Skywalker being Vader an all, that Luke Skywalker's his long lost son the minute he walks on screen in the OT.

Now, i'm sorry, but Episode 1 does not make a good first movie. If i ever have kids, they're gonna see episode 4 first. Not only is that where it thematically starts, but it's just simply a better movie. Cronologically, doing that might be wrong, but the story was designed that way, so that's the way it should be seen. Nobody's going and reordering "Memento" or any given Quentin Terantino film, right? So let's quit pretending that just because the prequels are numbered '1,2,3' that they magically come before '4,5,6'.

Telling the punchline of a joke first, ruins the joke. No amount of Trigger-happy Greedos can change that.

 

The George Lucas quote basically says that the shock will come when Vader tells Luke, because the audience will be wondering if and when he will tell Luke. Luke leaving and confronting Vader too early will be vastly emotional because the audience already knows the truth for Luke. I think the real shock of the saga is that Anakin turns into a villain. Think about it logically and wonder what will shock your kids more: The villain turns out to be the hero's father, or hero gives up on being a hero and turns into a villain. If you answer the former, then you are wrong.

The key to the new dialogue is that Vader says "Obi-Wan can no longer help him". As long as Vader knows or thinks that his child is with Obi-Wan in RotS, then this part will make it clear that Vader knew who Luke was all along. I mean if he didn't he'd be pretty incompetent. He wiped out half a fleet in the asteriod field looking for a Rebel leader, meanwhile the entire Rebel Fleet is getting away. Vader's search was personal.

 

You're right. Vader definitely did know, and that made it personal. What i don't understand is, why would Palpatine care enough to inform him?

Or WANT to? Put yourself in the Emp's shoes. If you found out that the hot-shot pilot who's been outperforming the best TIE pilots in the galaxy is actually your closest advisor's long-lost, presumed dead son, would you go and tell him the news? Can you say 'conflict of interest?'

You ask what would shock my hypothetical kids more, and from what you said, yes, seeing the movies in that order would in fact be more conducive to shock-ness. This is all, of course, assuming that the point of Star Wars is to shock people, which i would like to think it is not. Not that shock value is bad, it's just not why i watch Star Wars. And on a rating of 1 to 10, learning Anakin is actually the baddest badguy ever is a touch more shocking than learning luke 'n vader are related, which you have noted. But first of all, Star Wars is fun. In fact, it is the pinnacle of fun. With that in mind, if i want to show my kids a morality tale about a fall from grace there are plenty of good options. The Lion King, for instance - Hamlet with a happy ending. And if i wanna shock them, and they're older, The Matrix is a hell of a twister. (as long as they never find out there are sequels)

But if i wanna show 'em something fun, and i mean, really fun, I show 'em Star Wars. BUT... when should I start it? Should i start it at the one where everyone's talking about sanctions and trade, and they have to sit through the funny but forgettable antics of a nine year old and a Gungun to see the big duel at the end. Or should i start at the one about the farmer kid who dreams about the freedom of space, and gets his very own adventure thrown at him, complete with mystical hermits, sword fights, and showdowns at the OK corral? I dunno. That's a toughie.

 

He knows that no matter how much of a schemer Vader is, his fear of Palpatine will let him bring Luke before him.

Palpatines just reminding him and at the same time giving him an order.

 

I saw Star Wars when I was 5 years old and was hooked. I now have a 6 year old who loves the movies, she has seen all 5. She was not bored watching TPM, with treaty debates, etc. Not sure she even understood it all. She loves the heroic beautiful Queen(PT)/Princess(OT). She laughs at the silliness of JarJar--I now realize why he is there. She enjoys the Fun of the Star Wars movies. Whether they ruin ESB's shocking reveal in ROTS, she will probably not care one way or the other. We will have to see how it is done. Sometimes, we get caught up in the details. Remember this suppose to be fun and I am sure it will be.

To the point of this thread--I have not seen the new DVDs yet. I think Vader learns Luke is his son, but does not tell the Emperor for mixed reasons. He is a Sith and one day wants to be the Master, also it touches the good still within himself. When the Emperor learns who it is warning bells go off and he is letting Vader know he knows all (power of the darkside). He is proding to see if Vader will turn traitorous. He figures one of them must die to protect himself, so he orders Vader to do so. If Vader fails, he has a new student to teach. If Vader prevails, he has proven his loyalty. I like the dialogue change.

 

The only thing I don't like about the new dialog is the usage of the words "search your feelings..", it takes away from the moment when Vader says those words to Luke. Like he couldn't come up with his own line so he stole the Emperor's.

 

This is my first post in the Non-Spoiler forums (so I hope I am not slitting my own throat)

I think Anakin Skywalker being reveled as Darth Vader will happen in ROTS to at least Obi-Wan becuase in ROTJ Obi-Wan reveals that he knew Darth Vader's true ID all along.

Maybe Anakin took the name Darth Vader before the fateful "Obi-Wan vs. Anakin Duel" we have yet to see in ROTS and called himself "Darth Vader" during the duel?

 

Well said, Blyte.

Vader must have known by that point that Luke was his son. That's why he was so obsessed with finding him. He must not have wanted Palpatine to know he knew though.

Only thing that surprizes me is, did Palpatine know what Vader was up to in early ESB? When he was going after Luke on Hoth? Was Vader kind of freelancing, or taking some liberties in going on his own without Palpatine's knowledge? It wasn't until mid-movie that the emperor told Vader about Luke.

 

We know Vader was searching for Skywalker before the discussion halfway thru ESB.

I pondered for a few moments that he was searching for Luke to help him leave the dark side.

Then I remembered his extremely evil deeds in ESB... choking his officers at will. Then I thought, wait - these are bad guys he's off'ing. Plus he saves Chewie & 3PO in Cloud City.

Perhaps we'll see in EPIII just how strong the dark side is and why Anakin can't escape it without some help. Why he didn't use Obi Wan's help, we may have to see.

The other theory is the plain ol' rule of two siths and Vader was hunting Skywalker on this own to help overthrow the Emperor so Vader could be #1.

 

Vader seems to be using a fairly substantial portion of the Imperial Navy, as well as the Executor.

I doubt he would have been able to waste so much time and materiel if Luke hadn't been with the Rebellion.

I.e., if he was just looking for Luke throughout the GFFA.

But that's just my opinion.

Perhaps he tells Palps that he's trying to find the location of the Rebel base...and so Palps decides to step in and reveal the origins of Luke, just to see Vader's reaction.

 

Hopefully this change will be fully understood after we all see Ep.III.

I am more of the mindset that Vader knows of Luke...maybe we will see Anakin/Vader have sympathy towards him in ROTS

 

My opinion has always been that Anakin DOES have sympathy towards Luke, and in fact his "dying" wish to Obi-Wan is that he watch over him and keep him from the galactic conflict.

However, Anakin survives as Darth Vader and Obi-Wan, in fact, keeps his promise until ANH. That's when Vader rediscovers Luke and begins to purse his son. Now that Luke is involved, Vader wants to insure his safety in the only way he knows how, to turn him to the Dark Side and destroy Palpatine. In Vader's mind this would protect both he and Luke while bringing order to the chaotic galaxy. I believe, even in the OT, that Vader has "good" intentions. His methods, however, are very evil.

 

No, I think Vader should be pure evil. It makes his redemption that much more meaningful

 

If Lucas is able to keep the ESB surprise of Darth Vader being Luke's father intact with ROTS, I will bow down and kiss his feet. I'm telling you right now though, it's going to take a stroke of genius to pull it off!

 

Lucas has been hyping the fact that Anakin can't "let go", especially of his family. If he thought Luke still existed at the end of ROTS, he'd spend the next 20 years looking for him.

 

I think he'll think Luke for dead untill ANH.

THEN he hides it from Palpy till the ESB convo.

 

No, I think Vader should be pure evil. It makes his redemption that much more meaningful

He can't be pure evil or he could never be redeemed. Sidious is pure evil. There must have been some good still in Vader for him to be affected by Luke.

 

Yeah yeah yeah. I know.

I just mean he still must be seen as EVIL by the end of ROTS. If not "pure" evil.

 

The point is, if Vader doesnt seem pure evil at the end of ROTS, and we feel a little pity for him and his situation, then i feel Lucas will have failed in what he set out to do....


Vader must be a monster in ROTS, no hesitation with him comitting these acts once he has fallen to the DS, maybe with Kenobi but if Anakin needs constant probing from Sidious to be evil, then he isnt as evil as he should be

 

After watching the new scene a couple of times, I was at first disturbed by the new line, then I grew comfortable with it.

Here's my interpretation: in the first half of the movie, Vader is using the power of the Imperial Navy to destroy the Rebellion, as the Emperor was probably furious that the Death Star was destroyed. In no way was he specifically looking for Luke. Don't forget, in the escape from Hoth he chose to pursue Solo and Leia, not Luke. If he knew Luke was his son, and could sense his presence, perhaps he could have laid a trap for Luke.

So, that brings us to the conversation with the Emperor. The conversation is changed in a subtle way, one which actually works a little better. The Emperor tells Vader that the boy is his son. Vader is genuinely suprised, and then a little worried when the Emperor implies that Luke must be destroyed. So he quickly comes up with the idea to turn him to the Dark Side, all a clever plan to preserve his son's life.

Now, there is only one way that this conversation works - Anakin thinks Luke is dead at the end of ROTS. Somehow Yoda and Ben must trick Anakin/Vader into believing his children are dead. Ironically, perhaps this is even the last straw that pushes him over the edge to the Dark Side.