Lit Here's your Lightsaber, now kill some Sith! The questionable Jedi politics of the late NSW

War is chaos and warriors Jedi are not. Yet they become warriors and their numbers are grinded down to too few requiring to ramp up recruitment, training and everything else. Even in the Clone Wars Jedi training changes from what it used to be. Padawans sent to war like Knights and Masters, training during the fight instead of serene, sped up knighting ceremonies, etc.

But during the NSW, a more medieval looking GFFA era, the extremes were far worse than during the Clone Wars. The Jedi tried to defend the galaxy and failed, they retreated with the Republic border Coreward leaving only some Knights Errant like Kerra Holt on their own to try to do some good. Sith culture spreading furthered anti Jedi sentiment along the loss of hope and feeling abandoned by Jedi and Republic in the Rim. And with more Jedi striking out from the Core at the Sith as the lonesome Rangers like Kerra proved it possible and successful, it was the Jedi, not the Republic that took back some regions, lording over them as Jedi Lords until order and government could be reestablished.

But how did the too few Jedi replenish their forces to withstand the sheer onslaught and masses of Sith? They picked up Forcesensitives left and right, but often war orphans maybe, but not always. Did they forcefully recruit and take children for the better of the galaxy? That would be against the Jedi Way, but desperate measures in desperate times perhaps lending to later Kidstealer rumors?

But this topic is not about the old debate of Jedi stealing kids, well not entirely at least. It is more about what happened thereafter. Back in the NSW, the agelimit for training was not around yet, or not enforced and kids got accepted at much older ages with much trauma coming into the order. And yet, they, right after recruitment so to speak, sometimes got handed a lightsaber and had to fight. Sure the Ruusan comic is not exemplatory because a heavy casualty war scene and loss of recruitr/master leading to kids taking up laserswords happened but may not be the norm. Still, it paints a picture. And sometimes even an untrained Jedi, or one without the Force mostly wielding a lightsaber sends a message from afar to the Sith, boosting the believe that there are more Jedi than truly were, unbeknownst of their rank or training level. Cannon fodder still, war leads to desperate measures.

So how do you read the respective sources, imagine the late NSW and their questionable decisions?
Any childrens crusade?
And how long did it take the order to overcome that burden of (young) adult recruitment and the trauma they brought with them into the order? The galaxy may reset and rebuild with the Ruusan Reformations, the order may switch back to stricter rules and limitations in recruitment and education as well as a new role in relation to the government. But how many generations did it take for these former kids not falling to the dark side, being unable to adapt to new times or new order dogma?

We know the Republic and Jedi kept post Reformations fighting. Clearing out Sith follower holdouts, hunting the Rule of Two Sith before fully in hiding, as well as continuing post SITH war to warfare against Mandalorians and other species. The reunification of the Rim and Rerepublicanisation took till the High Republic centuries later after all!

In a way it is as if the NSW never ended, just continued without the Sith... and the Republic pretended to be at peace while fighting exterior threats via the Jedi and surgical fleet strikes. Slowly growing to its PT era size under the pretense of peace while corruption and greed grew alongside it and were far more influential in retaking regions, than anything else.

 

I'm pretty sure Hoth actually has somewhat of a crisis over this very issue.
The answer he is given is basically "If we don't the Sith will."

 

Any force sensitive that the Jedi don’t conscript is one the Sith will. It was a desperate time, and any warm body-especially one that could hold and swing a lightsaber was valuable for that purpose.

The New Sith Wars are arguably the prime example of what the Jedi will do, when their backs are against the wall.

 

It's also the clearest indication of the the order being an organization/institution...not a religion.

The order breaks it's own morals to defeat a foe that is not concerned about such checks on behavior.

As a result, the order sullies itself in what it sees as an imperative way to survive and defeat the greater darkness.

War is never good for anyone's sense of righteousness.

In the end, you are left wondering what are the long lasting repercussions to the order as a functioning body, and what the condition of the relationship to the lightside is in the aftermath.

Honestly...I've wondered myself if the order EVER fully recovered from the New Sith Wars. Just as the "rule of two" cast a long legacy over the Sith in the aftermath...I wonder if the "order" became more important then the "force" ever since Ruusan. It became more about "using" the force, instead of being "guided" by it.

Now, clearly, the teachings and writings insist this is not true, and perhaps the most sage of the masters and knights clung to a more noble belief in the force. But for how many and for how many generations was the force just a toolbox for keeping the galaxy in line?

 

I think what the New Sith Wars show is what happens when Jedi ethics run up against a true "do or die" crisis. The Jedi can afford to restrain themselves when there's another room to retreat too. When the costs of the wrong decision might be a defeat-but not the end.

The New Sith Wars on the other hand-seems to have forced the Jedi to jettison any sort of ethical self restraint beyond the necessities of winning arguably the galaxy's bloodiest, darkest and most hopeless war.

The EU does kinda go into this theme-starting in theory with the NJO and the Alpha Red plot, but later in LOTF when Luke is ordering Jacen assassinated like a mob boss.

I think its arguable to say the Jedi when forced in these situations inevitably lose their prior grounding with the light side. Justifiably or not.

 

After years and years in this fandom, I slowly came to the conclusion that… Jedi and their Order kinda suck. No matter what era or which continuity.

They are the lesser evil. A necessary evil. Because Force-sensitive individuals are going to continue being born, and better Jedi than Sith. These policemen and women are necessary to keep at bay things that are worse.

Individually some Jedi are really good people, but that’s no longer enough for me to care much about their religion and organisation. No matter what they say, they are soldiers.

 

The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice no?

Well the New Sith Wars was perhaps the one time in history, the Jedi were forced to jettison most(if not all) their ethical restraints in pursuit of that primary duty.

That is defending the galaxy’s people and by extension galactic government and civilization at any price.

Given how bad things got in the last four hundred years of the new Sith wars, such “extreme” actions were unfortunately necessary. Or at least seen as such. I don’t think conscripting force sensitive children per se was somehow going to change Ruusan’s outcome, at least not directly, but Hoth’s attitude makes sense given the context of the time. (Also it’s much better if you are going to be conscripted, to be so by the Jedi and not the Sith).

Things were desperate and extreme measures were necessary, there was no room for laxity or resting on laurels.

 

I wasn't only talking about the New Sith Wars era. The Jedi Order slowly and gradually lost my respect (and suspension of disbelief) in all eras and all its incarnations. And the more they're tied to a government, the less I'm able to see them as something different than police or military. Still, I much prefer them to the Sith, of course. Star Wars galaxy isn't this bright, prosperous place. Most people live pretty cruddy lives. All the Jedi are good for is to keep things from getting even worse.

 

Would you say the Imperial Knights are just a more honest incarnation of the Jedi? It's hard to argue the Jedi of the NSW have any moral superiority over Fel's Jedi. They're more or less the same thing.

 

Imperial Knights are an ideal they themselves never could fulfill. The Felpire is the Arthurian Empire of Medieval Myth. Their idea is to have the Round Table of Knights support a Chosen One's mission by elevating him as their leader and Emperor, protecting him and also from himself should he falter or fall to the Dark. The Felperor basically is a Force Pope ruling a worldly Empire.

Said Emperor/Felperor was of the Chosen One lineage via Jaina's line. The premise was a benevolent monarch in line with the Will of the Force is better than a bad democracy or other form of government. But as with the Jedi Council that should convene with the Force on all matters always to discern its will through multiple checks and balances via a variety of different Masters, the Imperial Knights and their Emperor fell short of such ideal and it was hard if not near impossible to find truth, the will of the Force or any answer to who is in line with it or not. In the end, like the Jedi or else they just pretended and kept going hoping their interpretation of the Force and its will is the best out there. But they were as easily subverted, as the Imperial Mission's darker double role revealed as well as other shortcomings.

Thus as the Imperial Knights and Felperor claimed to "know best" and thus superiority on all matters due to the will of the Force being on their leaders side, claiming rule and dominion, they actually are worse than the NSW Jedi, who admitted they did not know best but kept trying and in actually defending the last hope, they managed to not strive for any definite answer or superiority but merely for noble, honest and mild defense of life. Despite dark measures to keep the defense up, the NSW Jedi never wanted to rule or know best, they despite lack of intel and knowledge trusted the Force and kept trying. They did, believing in their goal against the odds. And that is how they succeeded.

Jedi do not win by killing.
Jedi do not win at any cost.
Jedi win by holding out long enough to see the Dark Siders implode and turn on themselves and destroy themselves.
Thus Jedi kill and try at any cost, but not to win, but merely to hold out to see the Dark perish itself and have them and their protegees survive to rebuild afterwards. But many Jedi who betray their ideals to achieve such a goal may not be amongst those others that see the end as they, when accepting these darker means, have to accept their price being most likely to not be a part of the future one creates for others as one chose means of the past, the dying branch to survive long enough for others to make it.

 

That’s such a silly argument to make when the Sith are actively killing people every day. When entire solar systems are going dark due to being cut off from galactic civilization, populations enslaved, conscripted or destroyed.

If the Jedi did not fight in the New Sith Wars, the Sith would have taken the galaxy. They very nearly did at least once if not more.

What the Jedi were forced to do(in terms of ethics and political power) in the NSW was unfortunate, but it’s very clear refusing to do so would have ended with the Sith winning.

 

Would it have?

The Republic deactivated Holonet, BoSS Services and cut off entire sectors and regions. Not the Sith who wanted to keep infrastructure intact to use it to rule. The Jedi and Republic may have prolonged the war by giving the Sith the opportunity to carve out mini Empires instead of turning on each other once they got galactic dominion and imploding in selfdestruction as they usually do and did in the past.

To fight as ROTJ thaught, is not the way of the Jedi, and not the way to end the spiral of conflict. Mysteries of the Sith reinforced this by using the same message to win. Rise of Skywalker, too, had heroes and Rey win through defense, not offense.

When Jedi go to war, they prolong it despite best intentions.

 

The holonet collapsed due to the stresses of the war. The Sith also do not appear to have been united, except in loose coalitions. Sith fought the Republic and then went to fight each other. The republic did not "de activate" any of those things. Those regions were cut off due to being overrun or reliable communication lost.

The Sith turned on each other all the time during the NSW-it did not reduce their effectiveness at all.

The NSW is probably the highpoint ironically of Sith military success. And shows why the Jedi have to be willing to work with(and sometimes take control of) governing bodies.

 

During the NSW the Jedi would control the Supreme Chancellor's office for four centuries. Maybe not an Imperial Throne, but it would seem like the Jedi Council had completely usurped the Senate's control of the Republic.

 

That was necessary in my reading to prevent the government from completely collapsing.

If it had, no fleets and no armies to meet the Sith, public services to provide for republic citizens, maintain the holonet and keep order.

A dangerous action to take-but it was that or perish.

 

The Republic deactivated BoSS, Holonet etc. services to slow Sith advance coreward and save themselves to fortify as per many guide sources. Please proof your claims that they did not in canon, in Legends, they did!

 

No, cite your sources. I am claiming they collapsed due to the stresses of the war and were not de activated.

You're making a positive claim, and thus its up to you to back it up.

 

NSW Jedi maintain religious trappings. There's very much a Medieval Crusades feel to that era. Imperial Knights, by contrast, much like the Empire they serve are a very practical bunch. The Empire, whether ruled by Sith or not, has always been about putting the 'mundane' above all else (technological terrors line, etc.) so it fits perfectly that even their Force Users would in practicality be Force-using soldiers. To Imperial Knights, the Force is just a tool in their service to the Empire/Emperor.

Its why even Draco killing Roan Fel was a practical matter, at least to me. That whole scene felt less like a Dark Side corruption thing, but a Soldier-Emperor that's been fighting for so long he's decided that any means will do, if it means getting to victory, without thinking too much about it. And then there's his lieutenant, who's trying to convince him that victory isn't worth killing the people he's doing it all for.

 

There is also a different political context. Jedi Lords are sovereigns in their own right. At least of single worlds or systems. The IKs are sworn servants of the Emperor. They hold no political power except that which is granted by the Emperor.

Which fits the different times-the Legacy era is very politically centralized, and all power flows from one center. Whether that be Krayt, Fel or Gar Stazi. In the NSW the Republic had lost its galactic hegemony, and the Sith were disunited. So an individual Jedi ruling a star system was in some sense a king of his or her domain, not a servant or appointee.