How big was the Imperial Starfleet?

If the Imperial Starfleet was scattered all over the galaxy at the start of ESB, what was up with all those SD's around Vader's command ship? Were those ships just part of Vader's personal fleet?

 

According to the EU the Imperials had a fleet of 25,000 star destroyers at the time of Endor. However, if one counts the Imp vessels at Endor thre are only 27 on screen. So you have to decide if the Empire had 27 ships or 25,000.

As for ESB, those 5 Star Destroyers are the other ships assigned to Death Squadron. It was the fleet assigned to hunt out and destroy the Rebels main base of ops. That is as well EU.

 

So you have to decide if the Empire had 27 ships or 25,000.


Heh, the choices are funny. It's either 27 or 1000 times that many.

 

Vader's personal squadron included the following Star Destroyers:

Executor
Avenger
Tyrant
Stalker
Vengeance
Devastator

Although after the Falcon got lost in the asteroid field, Vader apparently called in more ships, such as the one that lost its bridge to a large asteroid.

 

Well 27 is too few to police the galaxy. 25,000 is a good number, it may seem huge but the galaxy is a massive place. Just on Earth thousands of ships can be built in war, mainly transports but still, if we can build thousands, how many can the Galactic Empire build?

There's a catch though, it seems hard to believe the Rebellion could destroy 25,000 ships, or even a majority. According to certain EU sources, the Rebel fleet at Endor was most of the entire Alliance fleet, if that's so, it seems absurd that even using good tatics, that the Alliance could ever destroy so many ships. Also, the Empire should have known the size of the Rebel fleet "massing near Sullest". If so, they should have put more Imperial vessels at Endor.. so why didn't they? Could be over confidence.. but why gamble on the decisive battle of the war?

Three possibilities:

1-The Empire had far fewer than 25,000 ships.

2-The Empire sent only a few ships to Endor as to not arouse suspicion. It's hard to hide the fact of sending a hundred or so Star Destryoers anywhere, even with tight security, if they had done that the Rebels may have gotten wise to the trap.

3-The Empire had sustained major losses, primarily in manpower (Deathstar losses and such) that even though they had ships, they were short on crew.

I think #2 makes the most sense.

 

#2 makes the most sense. If too many SDs were called away from their posts, the Rebellion would have gotten wise to the Empire's tactics.

Plus, the real trap at Endor wasn't the Imperial fleet. It was the Death Star.

 

I don't know if it was an RPG supplement from the D20 game version or not, but I recall reading that there were thousands(plural) of sector fleets composed of 25 Stardestroyers each. This could mean a minimum of 25,000 as the EU currently states, or multiples of that figure.

It could also have been worded "25,000 ships" for all I can remember, and not actually specify if it was SD's or not.

 

ROTJ certainly tries very hard to imply that the fleet at Endor is the bulk of the imperial fleet.

Firstly, the Rebellion claim that the fleet is scattered across the galaxy in the hope of engaging the Rebels.

Then Vader reveals that the fleet is actually gathered behind Sullust.


Of course, if the entire Rebel fleet is sitting in front of the Death Star, then what would the Imperial fleet be needed for elsewhere? Is there another rebellion that never got mentioned?

 

then what would the Imperial fleet be needed for elsewhere? Is there another rebellion that never got mentioned?

Blinkin' eck! I thought that would be an obvious one. The Empire would need ISDs for each individual system in order to keep the civilian populous in their place; to stop riots and the overthrow of their planetary governors. I ask you, if you were a disgruntled civilian with a rebellious streak, would you go out onto to streets and attempt a coup if you knew an ISD was on your doorstep; an ISD with the firepower to lay waste to the entire planet's surface?

Take away all the ISDs from their assigned systems and you'd have riots on thousands of planets all across the galaxy! "Hear about the Empire? They've sent all their ISDs to Endor in order to take on the Rebellion! Let's go into town and beat up on some Stormtroopers!!!", or "Don't you hate that governor of ours? Now our ISDs at Endor, we'll stand a chance of getting the creep out by force!"

The bulk of the Imperial star fleet would be needed on station in their assigned systems in order to primarily keep an eye on the CIVILIANS, and also to stop possible Rebel infiltration of the civilian populous. And maybe even to keep a discrete eye on the planetary governors, just in case they get a little too "ambitious".

 

At the battle of Endor there was only one SSD. According to the EU, the Empire built four of these.

I'd say the Imperial fleet was BIG.

 

>>>>>I ask you, if you were a disgruntled civilian with a rebellious streak, would you go out onto to streets and attempt a coup if you knew an ISD was on your doorstep; an ISD with the firepower to lay waste to the entire planet's surface?

Firstly, I said that ROTJ implies that the bulk of the fleet is at Endor- not every single ship.

Secondly, Mon Mothma says that the Imperial Fleet is scattered across the galaxy, "in an attempt to engage the Rebellion." This is not the same as saying that the imperial fleet is doing it's usual patrol of every single star system in the Empire, with a small percentage of it out hunting Rebels.

Thirdly, we're talking about the fleet- not the entire military force of the Empire.

But let me get your point straight- you're saying that if there wasn't an ISD in orbit around every single planet, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, then the populace would;

a) Be aware of it's absence, and know where it had gone (even though the Rebels had no idea) and;

b) They would immediately run riot, with no regard for the possibilty of the Star Destroyers returning, possibly with a Death Star in tow?

 

"Secondly, Mon Mothma says that the Imperial Fleet is scattered across the galaxy, "in an attempt to engage the Rebellion." "
Maybe she referred to the part of the Imperial Fleet (the reserves?) that is ready to strike anywhere and the rest of the Navy would be defending or patrolling their systems/sectors and other vital targets such as huge shipyards?

 

Even with all the SD's, they'd have millions of support ships too.

 

>>>>Maybe she referred to the part of the Imperial Fleet (the reserves?) that is ready to strike anywhere and the rest of the Navy would be defending or patrolling their systems/sectors and other vital targets such as huge shipyards?

Surely the most vital target would be the Death Star itself, with the Emperor on board?

Look at what the film tells us; it's crystal clear;

"With the Imperial Fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us, it is relatively unprotected. But most important of all, we've learned that the Emperor himself is personally overseeing the final stages of the construction of this Death Star."

The Imperial fleet is spread throughout the galaxy hunting Rebels- not patrolling the various star systems throughout the Empire or protecting shipyards.

Sure, you can speculate that by "Imperial Fleet", she meant "Imperial Reserves" and not "Imperial Fleet" or something like that, but it really is made explicitly clear in the films where the Imperial Fleet was in ROTJ, and what it was doing. (And it's not what the Rebels thought it was doing...)

Send the fleet to the far side of Endor. There it will stay until called for.

I really don't see why Star Destroyers would be patrolling star systems anyway. That would be total overkill- like using a Chinook to deal with a shoplifter. I wouldn't think that they would be much use against civilian unrest etc. anyway, for the same reason that a Death Star isn't much use against an X-wing...

 

The Rebellion wasn't the only threat the Imperial fleet had to deal with. There were pirates, smugglers, and of course the civilian populace.

Nothing in ROTJ even remotely implies that the fleet at Endor was anywhere close to the entire Imperial fleet.

 

Nothing in ROTJ even remotely implies that any of the Imperial fleet was anywhere other than Endor.

 

Just look at it this way. The US Navy is split into different fleets. There's the Atlantic and the Pacific fleets, which in turn are split into smaller fleets each under the control of a single aircraft carrier. At the Battle of Hoth, the controller referred to the Death Squadron as "an Imperial fleet coming out of hyperspace". The term "fleet" applies to attack forces as well as the fleet as a whole.

If we were to think strategically, then the Empire would need thousands of ISDs in order to keep control of a galaxy, as well as to hunt down the Rebel Alliance. As previously said, the bulk of the fleet would be needed as a deterrent (the threat of force) against civilian uprisings, whilst the rest would be split into squadrons much like Vader's Death Squadron. If there were indeed only 27 ISDs in the Imperial Star Fleet, then the Empire would have crumbled years before even ANH took place, because 27 battle cruisers are nowhere near enough to keep control over an entire galaxy, let alone fight the Rebel Alliance.

I can't remember which game it was, but in either "X-Wing" or "TIE Fighter" (both LucasArts games), there was a cut scene where the Rebels used a Blockade Runner in order to ram a long line of reserve ISDs that were sat in dock. This implies that there were a lot more ISDs than you saw in the movies.

It was said in ANH that the Death Star had a firepower greater than half the Star Fleet. And Solo (an ex-Imperial officer) said that in order to destroy Alderaan, it would take "thousands of ships, with more firepower than I've..."

That would be total overkill- like using a Chinook to deal with a shoplifter. ?

The Chinook military helicopter is a troop transporter, not an attack helicopter. It's got no firepower.

And how can an ISD be considered "overkill" when the Emperor wanted Death Stars to strike fear into the populous of the galaxy? ? Wasn't Palpatine's policy to "rule by fear"? Just the fear of a mile long battle cruiser sitting on your planet's front doorstep would be enough to keep the people under the governor's thumb.

And if we are talking about "real world" overkill here, what about the threat of nuclear holocaust that Earth lived through for over 40 years? Yes, if the "Commies" invade us we'll just wipe the whole world out!

All of a sudden, the Emperor ordering the destruction of a rebelling alien world doesn't sound so stupid after all, when compared to the US and Russia threatening our own world devastation over a political ideal!

 

Nothing in ROTJ even remotely implies that any of the Imperial fleet was anywhere other than Endor.

Yes it does. Mon Mothma says that the fleet is spread across the galaxy.

The Imperial fleet had 25000 Star Destroyers. No source says otherwise.

 

You tell 'im, Bib!

 

You know, if you came down on a system with an SSD, 5 or 6 ISDs, a bunch of TIE squadrons and you really kicked that systems afterburner, you'd make a pretty big impression. Soon enough, word will spread to another system about this Imperial task force. Meanwhile, you'd jump to another system, do some mayhem there and jump out again. That system will also spread the details of the attack and soon enough the little task force will have grown to an impressive fleet of 4 SSDs, 24 ISDs, thousands of TIEs, etc.

The Empire wasn't unaware of propaganda either, you know. So they put this guy on a planet, that starts rambling on about how his planet was wasted by a huge fleet of Imps, yadadadada....

My point is, perhaps the Empire didn't even have thousands of ISDs, but maybe a couple of hundred. They use those wisely in various systems and let gossip do the rest.

 

Yes, IncomT65, I too tend to sit somewhere in the middle as far as ISD numbers are concerned. Although I know for sure that 27 ISDs are waaay too few in order to keep order in the galaxy, I do think that over 25,000 ISDs is way too much of an over estimation, because of the man hours needed in order to build such numbers. I myself would estimate the number of ISDs in the Imperial Star Fleet as being more akin of between 5 and 10 thousand.

 

>>>>If we were to think strategically, then the Empire would need thousands of ISDs in order to keep control of a galaxy, as well as to hunt down the Rebel Alliance.

Either the Empire would have an army spread across the galaxy with something watching over each and every star system, or it would have a fleet with enough versatility to be able to attend to and quell any trouble.
It seems to me that it?s the latter.

It?s like in any strategy game- you don?t spread your forces evenly throughout your territory, because it?s highly wasteful- you spread them as thinly as possible, and have large, mobile forces defending trouble spots, or ready to be mobilised for offensive action.

It seems to me that the idea that the Empire would need thousands of these Star Destroyers simply diminishes the power of the Star Destroyers.

>>>>I can't remember which game it was, but in either "X-Wing" or "TIE Fighter" (both LucasArts games), there was a cut scene where the Rebels used a Blockade Runner in order to ram a long line of reserve ISDs that were sat in dock. This implies that there were a lot more ISDs than you saw in the movies.

In the EU, I understand that it is flat out stated that there are a lot more ISD?s than seen in the movies. However, the movies alone give a very different impression.

>>>>It was said in ANH that the Death Star had a firepower greater than half the Star Fleet. And Solo (an ex-Imperial officer) said that in order to destroy Alderaan, it would take "thousands of ships, with more firepower than I've..."

An interesting line to raise; if you look at the rest of it;

?The entire Starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've...?

(Emphasis mine.)

The clear implication here is clearly that the Starfleet is smaller than a thousand ships.

It?s General Dodonna who states that the Death Star has a firepower ?greater than half the star fleet?- presumably, this is referring to the defensive firepower (ie. turret guns etc.) that the assault will face, and doesn?t include the planet-destroying laser.

>>>>>The Chinook military helicopter is a troop transporter, not an attack helicopter. It's got no firepower.

OK then- it?s like using an Apache to deal with a shoplifter. Either way, it?s a wasteful and inappropriate use of resources.

>>>>>And how can an ISD be considered "overkill" when the Emperor wanted Death Stars to strike fear into the populous of the galaxy?

The Death Stars are supposed to strike fear into the hearts of the regional governors once the Senate has been dissolved and it?s bureaucracy is no longer in place to keep control of them; the governors are supposed to control the populous of the galaxy. (ie. Not do what the governor of Alderaan was doing?)

>>>>Wasn't Palpatine's policy to "rule by fear"? Just the fear of a mile long battle cruiser sitting on your planet's front doorstep would be enough to keep the people under the governor's thumb.

Sure- but that doesn?t require there to actually be a ?mile long battle cruiser sitting on every planet?s front doorstep?- simply the realistic possibility of there being one there if it was requested.



>>>>Yes it does. Mon Mothma says that the fleet is spread across the galaxy.



As I said; "it really is made explicitly clear in the films where the Imperial Fleet was in ROTJ, and what it was doing. (And it's not what the Rebels thought it was doing...)"

 

Nothing in ROTJ says the fleet at Endor was the entire Imperial fleet, nor was it the fleet that Mon Mothma was referring to.

Han didn't seem surprised to see so many Star Destroyers at Endor when he flew there, and he wasn't concerned that the Rebellion would have to be facing those ships. That says to me that the Rebellion was expecting to face the 27 Star Destroyers. They were just caught off guard by the immediate swarm of TIE fighters, and the fact that the Death Star's shield was still up.

 

"ROTJ certainly tries very hard to imply that the fleet at Endor is the bulk of the imperial fleet."

I'd say that the bulk of the fleet was at Endor, but not all of it. I can't give a number since one is never mentioned in the movies but my guess would be mid to high 30s.

"The Imperial fleet had 25000 Star Destroyers. No source says otherwise."

And nothing in the movies says there are 25000 Star Destroyers, so someone who doesn't accept the EU has no reason to believe this number is correct. Especialy when the movies would go agains this.