How good of a military tactician was Obi Wan Kenobi? (vs. Other Jedi)

Hey guys, you can guess which thread inspired this one.

In addition to Obi Wan this is my attempt to grasp just how good the Jedi Knights were in the ranks of the Clone Wars along with the overall war structure as a whole. My personal theories aside though are that Obi Wan Kenobi was an exceptional Jedi Warrior during the Clone Wars, thus explaining his sudden vaunted position as amongst the greatest of Jedi when he seems to have such trouble with Anakin during his "Jedi Quest" run.

I like to think of Obi Wan Kenobi as the "Patton" of the Jedi Knights during the Clone Wars (making Luke's question "You fought in the Clone Wars" all the more ironic)

We've seen how many other Jedi fail miserably at being military tacticans in the statements of Jedi: Mace Windu, Mission to Cartao, Republic 45#, Republic 46# (The Jedi just fight until they die-though Pellaeon doesn't help. Tangent: You can always depend on Pellaeon...to turn tail and scamper!). Windu summarizes it best as "we're keepers of the peace not soldiers."

It seems primarily because of this and the Jedi Knights value on life (especially the lives of others vs. their own) that they make poor officers. Leading at the front is admirable but not always wise for an armies' success.

We also know that tactics and strategy are independent of heroism. Even if the Jedi can see the future (and the Jedi's ability there is diminished) that doesn't help them if they can't interpret the data properly.

Obi Wan Kenobi seems to be the exception to this rule (along with Anakin, Mace Windu and possibly Yoda).

The Defense of Kamino, Clone Wars: Trade Paperback 2#, Battle of Jaaibm, and current Republic series are insights mainly into Kenobi and Anakin.

(I am reminded of the disaster of the Bio-weapon affair though where Kenobi is the only survivor. That mission could have been accomplished with clone troopers or special ops but they sent valuable jedi)

He seems a very capable commander to me. Willing to hold the chain of command well along with sacrifice individual members for the greater good. The ground campaign of Muulinst seems to be along with Calamari, the greatest of Republic victories thus far in the war

SPOILERS FOR TCD
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(oddly he and Kit Fisto handle a brilliant mustering of native troops in the Cestus Deception
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SPOILERS FOR TCD

Interestingly though, Obi Wan's military experience doesn't start at the Clone Wars though and I believe this is why Obi Wan is superior at tactics than possibly all the other Jedi (mace and Yoda included).

His experiences on Melida Daan in Jedi Apprentice 5 and 6# were only as a boy but Obi Wan spent more than six months as the primary planner of a military campaign on a planet. He became intimately acquainted with the realities of warfare there and possibly learned a great deal from the well acquainted warriors of that planet with ground conflict.

Jedi Quest also opens with a military campaign that Obi Wan fairly effectively silences by himself.

The Clone Wars video game is where I think he shines, only having heard second hand and watched though...he seems to be the primary leader of the Jedi militay effort along with Mace.

Mace seems to be a MORE a warrior not a tactician though, this just my personal impressions.

And we know Ackbar comments on Obi Wan Kenobi's known military maneuvers.

 

We need to black out Cestus Deception spoilers. Not yelling and thank you for the warning.

As for Obi-Wan. He was a good tactician. He was unwilling to break any rules. And he wouldn't listen to Alpha but he was a good tactician who found ways to do things that were made more difficult by him being a Jedi.

 

I agree. Obi-Wan is a mediocre Jedi at best, but a good general. He really found his place during the Clone Wars. I don't think he'd be known as one of the greatest Jedi if Clone Wars never took place.

Nowadays, when I think of him, I imagine him as he appeared in the Clone Wars micro series: In full clone trooper armor

I wonder how the Battle Of Jabiim would have turned out if Obi-Wan hadn't been left out of the action so early.

 

I think Obi-Wan benefits from the fact that he seems to be better able to relate to ordinary troops than other jedi (eg Mace, Yoda), probably because pre-Clone Wars, he wasn't really one of the "stars".

 

I reckon the reverse Peregrine.

ObiWan was a better Jedi than General because his Jedi beliefs always won out over the more expediant military option, look at how he is restraining Alpha on Jabiim or how he holds back with Ventress. If he was a good General he'd allow Alpha full latitude and simply kill Ventress, either personally or by bomb or sniper.

In the Clone Wars the Jedi mindset was in direct opposition to the military role assigned them, thus impairing them greatly which was the Sith's plan.

If he is anything like Patton, it is in his absolute belief, but that belief is in the Jedi ideals and the Republic, not those of the military.

JB

 

Yeah though I think Obi Wan Kenobi could have been a fairly great Jedi Knight, I think he wasn't the type of Jedi that anyone was actually looking for.

If Obi Wan would only have followed his instincts instead of looking to the council then he would have been truly fantastic. When we open Star Wars he's hunting criminals of all things and being stuck with the Senate because they think he does well with politicians.

Whenever he screws up with Anakin or dealing with the crises of Jedi Quest its because he's hanging on the Jedi Council's coat-tails.

However, on the battle-field Obi Wan is able to show his true metal.

Interestingly, I do wonder who is the better General....Alpha or Obi Wan. It's possible Obi Wan learned a few things from Alpha but Obi Wan halted Durge's counter-attack against the ground forces of Muulinst fairly effectively and lead the ARC troopers very well.

Timothy Zhan's Insider series I just got today and it was interesting to see Obi Wan's use of tactics in this work.

SPOILERS FOR THE OPENING CHAPTER OF THE CESTUS DECEPTION
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Obi Wan is also referenced with Anakin as having successfully halted through tactics...and not a lightsaber...a Confederacy charge through the mountains using terrain to his advantage.
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SPOILERS FOR THE OPENING CHAPTER OF THE CESTUS DECEPTION

I think this compares interesting with General Shaak Ti as it occurs to me that I was originally hesitant to say she was an awful General since she 'won' Brentaal but reading the comic Jedi: Shaak Ti again...its clear she screwed up the invasion royally.

Only the fact she captured the leader on her own won the day.

Anyone got any thoughts on which Jedi are good at their job as Generals and which suck?

I disagree though on holding Alpha back. Ruthlessness does not necessarily always win wars. The execution of Republic prisoners is only going to forfeit them even more moral high ground to the Separtists. It's clear a great deal of Dooku's plans depend on forcing the Republic to commit atrocities to cause more worlds to secede

(See the Legacy of the Jedi and Jedi: Dooku but new books are going to back this up I'm sure)

As for killing Ventress I point out actually that we necessarily assume Obi Wan can kill her easily. She is a very canny foe and Obi Wan mostly has other responsibilities, it's clear I think he would kill her if he had the opportunity. I do however believe that she's also not necessarily a militarily important one.

Ventress is Dooku's dog. She basically fills the same role as Mara Jade. The bearer of Dooku's will and personal assassin. The Separtists would not be unduly harmed by her loss militarily. The General and Dooku are a different story...even Durge I think.

SPOILERS for the Cestus Deception and Medstar Duology.
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Obi Wan also shows a willingness to lie, cheat, steal, and perform gurellia warfare against worlds that pose a threat to the greater good. He acts with surprising ruthlessness in the Cestus Deception and doesn't argue with Palpatine's choices to bomb a planet.

Compare this to Barriss Offee who works against a combat instructor who just enjoyed killing ENEMY troopers.

My Legacy of the Jedi quote is also backed up in Cestus because Dooku sets up worlds to be annihilated by the Republic for moral purposes.

 

I disagree though on holding Alpha back. Ruthlessness does not necessarily always win wars. The execution of Republic prisoners is only going to forfeit them even more moral high ground to the Separtists. It's clear a great deal of Dooku's plans depend on forcing the Republic to commit atrocities to cause more worlds to secede

Last Stand on Jabiim spoilers
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You see Obi-Wan holding him back on Jabiim also. Alpha wants to assasinate the enemy leaders and Obi-Wan says no. Which was foolish and cost the lives of about 10 Jedi, hundreds if not thousands of troops and the planet.
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I don't think you need to do spoiler posts for Last Stand on Jaabim, it's been out along time now. However, this is your call and my below comments include SPOILERS....

(BTW I mixed up Anakin's stopping the execution of prisoners with Obi Wan...sorry, I'm getting the TPB tommorow)

Let's not necessarily assume that Obi Wan's squeamishness about assassination is solely at fault here. I have no doubt morality played a part in the situation but Obi Wan has shown a willingness to personally kidnap/capture members of the enemy along with bring them in 'dead or alive'

Jaabim's leadership could not have taken out easily and the problem was that it was a popular revolt. Obi Wan knew that this suppression was going to be a bloody affair. Simply killing the psychotic General would only make the man a martyr to his cause.

Also as certain real-life wars prove, sometimes it becomes necessary to not assassinate your direct enemies in order to negotiate with them. You may think this plays a small part in war but if say General Lee had been killed...yes the Confederacy (no pun intended) would have lost a brilliant stategist but the occupation would have beceome even worse.

Ireland is an example of a country where the lack of a centralized leadership to resistance can lead to long standing gurellia warfare.

Jaabim was also set up by Palpatine to fail. They needed to win a decisive victory over their leadership AND armies with the Partisans on the Republic's side there to fill the leadership void afterwards.

Alpha is a brilliant warrior but I believe Pellaeon said "What he wanted was a brilliant leader, what he got was a tactically brilliant stormtrooper"

Alpha is useless for strategy, only tactics.

 

Let's not necessarily assume that Obi Wan's squeamishness about assassination is solely at fault here. I have no doubt morality played a part in the situation but Obi Wan has shown a willingness to personally kidnap/capture members of the enemy along with bring them in 'dead or alive'

Yes but capturing would have been next to if not impossible. Alpha was probably thinking along the lines of him with a sniper rifle.

Jaabim's leadership could not have taken out easily and the problem was that it was a popular revolt. Obi Wan knew that this suppression was going to be a bloody affair. Simply killing the psychotic General would only make the man a martyr to his cause.

SPOILERS. (I respect anyone who is behind on the comics like myself) If there was only 1 or 2 good strategists on the enemy side it would crush them. After his death both sides fell apart. The CIS due to his death and the Republic for lackof Republic support. I think the CIS side won in the end after the TPB (not sure) because the side that supported the Republic was small and without the Republic it was doomed.

Also as certain real-life wars prove, sometimes it becomes necessary to not assassinate your direct enemies in order to negotiate with them. You may think this plays a small part in war but if say General Lee had been killed...yes the Confederacy (no pun intended) would have lost a brilliant stategist but the occupation would have beceome even worse.

The war would have ended much sooner. And Obi-Wan's choices cost about 10 Jedi to die.

Ireland is an example of a country where the lack of a centralized leadership to resistance can lead to long standing gurellia warfare.

The CIS on Jabiim had a leader. He was a good one and he was in comtrol of everything. At least that is what I got from it.

 

Yes but capturing would have been next to if not impossible. Alpha was probably thinking along the lines of him with a sniper rifle.

Understood, but these sorts of things are not easily accomplished either as the CIA is won't to prove. I stand behind Obi Wan on this end that assassination is not always the end of and be end all of victory. The Republic's victory conditions are to hold the planet against the Separtists.

Furthermore, to not make it a pyrric victory.

SPOILERS. (I respect anyone who is behind on the comics like myself) If there was only 1 or 2 good strategists on the enemy side it would crush them. After his death both sides fell apart. The CIS due to his death and the Republic for lackof Republic support. I think the CIS side won in the end after the TPB (not sure) because the side that supported the Republic was small and without the Republic it was doomed.

I'm not sure we can really make a judgement on the Jaabim situation post-the Dictator's death. The Republic political presence on the planet (according to holonews) had already been eradicated by the man. The partisans also were not exactly in the best mood I think when Anakin left them to die.

Furthermore, they were all annihilated in the final battle. The fact that though the Dictator died, presumably everyone else did too on the Jedi's side.

The war would have ended much sooner. And Obi-Wan's choices cost about 10 Jedi to die.

If you mean the Civil War, I would bet you a hundred dollars it would still likely be going on to some degree. General Lee was the only reason it stopped in my opinion and his death would have destroyed the Northern cause.

A breakdown into barbarism is the last thing any startegist wants.

The CIS on Jabiim had a leader. He was a good one and he was in comtrol of everything. At least that is what I got from it.

I'm referring to the fact that if the Republic eliminated the leadership that it would have improved the situation. I agree that assassination is a perfectly valid tool during war (though speaking as a pacifist-this is theoretical) and has aided many situations immensely.

However the United States eliminated several presidents during Vietnam and the overall situation wasn't changed.

I'm hesitant to chalk it up to military blunders on Obi's part. You are right though that it concievably was a mistake on Obi Wan's part.

The problem with Jaaibm is possibly that the place is ungovernable by civilized authorities due to the shattered infrastructure and government. The fact that its environmental conditions were drastically mislabeled also means that the Republic likely couldn't have stayed anyway

 

First off is it Jabiim or Jaabim? I'm thinking double i but I could be wrong.

And I support Obi-Wan's choice. It was morally right. But it did come with consequences in thousnads of troops and 10 Jedi deaths. As a military choice it was wrong. As a moral choice it was right. I kust wonder what would happen if Alpha was given an army.

 

I don't support it as a moral choice actually. If one is going to war then one shouldn't have half measures. The greater good is whatever preserves the most lives and peace.

As a moral choice it was right. I kust wonder what would happen if Alpha was given an army.

The Empire and stormtroopers



Let's not forget they didn't always suceed either.

 

Obi-Wan only beat Maul from the latter's mucking around, nothing more. And the battle between him and Anakin must be fierce, the blow to decide the future.

But you're forgetting one thing . . .

His CW adventures is educating him big time.

Ventress fights brutual and skillfully. Obi-Wan barely held his own on the Naboo moon, gagging from the gas as well. but each encounter leaves him stroger, wiser. Ventress is too strong to take lightly, and Obi-Wan gets toughened up each time he brawls with her.

He goes from being a medicore boy on the Tipoca landing platform with Fett to an experienced combatant by E3.

 

He goes from being a medicore boy on the Tipoca landing platform with Fett to an experienced combatant by E3.

You underestimate Jango Fett methinks. In Open Seasons Winter he killed 4 lightsaber armed Jedi with his bare hands. It is confirmed he killed at least 2. Maybe two were just knocked out. That is a skilled man.

 

I would be more respectful of Obi Wan in that encounter were he not looking like such an incredible idiot during it.

Remember your own lessons! DON'T LOSE YOUR LIGHTSABER!

Anyman who survives an encounter with Jango Fett deserves respect, don't get me wrong, but it was comical some of his mistakes.

(and deliberatly so)

Interestingly though, Obi wan is confirmed a master of Style III as opposed to style VII. This means Obi Wan is a respected swordsman of his discipline rather than just a dabbler in swordsmanship.

(Oddly Kit Fisto excels in what I thought to be the weakest of them in Style I)

 

Be that as it may, RW, I was only going by what prowess Kenobi exhibited on that rainswept platform. He wasn't powerful, just average. But he's been toughened up considerably. He'll take a beating now, and still dish dinner out.

 

True but it also says Style I is what's taught to children. I don't doubt Style I advance is a proper style NOW but I assumed that there WAS no advanced form of it.

Interestingly about learning military tactics, I am wondering where Obi Wan picks up his training personally. I've mentioned he's the only with hands on experience but I can't imagine much of an educational situation on Melida/Daan and the main problem with the Jedi is the fact that Jedi aren't probably given their own copies of the Art of War likely.

They're made Generals solely for the belief they are good at everything (and to kill them)

Alpha certainly might be a good influence on Obi-Wan's military skill but I wonder if he picks up training from anyone else.

 

Having gotten my paperback I've noticed that Obi Wan Kenobi is credited with coming up (along with Anakin Skywalker) a tactic that is hideously effective against Battle Droids.

Basically it relies on their primitive brains to draw the target forward with obvious targets and then flank them. Not exactly a revolutionary strategy but one that will be extremely effective with standardized troopers.

Republic 64# is interestingly an issue I'm quite fond of talking about a Jedi defeat at the hands of the Separtists where the droids are eradicated from orbit along with Republic troops because the Jedi didn't believe they'd harm them.

A definite example of their code getting in the way.

Republic 69# also shows the Jedi Knighthood screwing up as Palpatine's "good friend" and company refuse to retreat because they are so courageous and won't leave men behind. Their heroism results in their complete annihilation.

Anakin, if he learned this from Obi Wan, is quite right to leave behind the men that he can on Jaabim. He was very much a 'big picture' man.

I forget if Obi Wan Kenobi or Aalya Secura was in charge of the Defense of Kamino but their victory was fairly strong there (abet the trap was set by forces other than the Jedi).

Out of curiosity, how effective do you think Obi Wan would be against say Thrawn and company? You would think he'd be easily outmatched but it occurs to me Thrawn's abilities to outguess opponents are happened by the fact Obi Wan CAN outguess them.

In a time when his ability to use the Force was not diminished, I'd actually put Obi Wan over Thrawn.