How good was Vader as a military commander???

Inspired by a thread, that was supposed to deal with the flaws of the EU in comparison to the movies, but very quickly showed itself to be another Zahn-bashing-session (why isn´t that done with JAT, the X-Wing-novels, the BFC or the GoDV-series, is Zahn´s work the only EU worth arguing about?) i have to wonder:

How good is Vader as a military commander. Not as a warrior, or fighter-pilot, but as military commander, who is supposed to sit on the general´s hill or the bridge of a starship.

 

Vader's pretty bad.
While he was searching for the Falcon, he lost many ships. He should've stayed in the blockade, because Luke left Hoth after all the Imperials were gone, no one blocked his way. How awful!
Hoth was an operation which could have been so much more effectively accomplished.

But because of Vader's two negative feats:
1) his sudden anger, in which he kills his officers
2) his selfishness, that he would put the entire operation and blockade away to chase one ship... that he would conduct an attack just to get that Skywalker.
The operation was badly executed. I suggest it was Vader who only sent a couple AT-ATs to break the shield, because he was afraid to kill Luke. The shield was finally destroyed by Veers (not Vader, he had nothing to do with AT-AT tactics).

Instead of making a planetary bombardment to wipe out the Rebel scum, Vader lands to search for Luke. But Luke and other Rebels escape.

And it is clear from ESB and ROTJ that Vader was a treasonous type; while this is not directly related to commanding talents, it still makes him a bad commander for the Empire.

 

Just the other day I was reading a discussion - I can't for the life of me remember which board it was on, may have been this very one - that Anakin Skywalker (not technically Vader, but close enough) was a very good tactician ("Aim right above the main fuel cells!") but a poor strategist. So ideally someone like Veers or Tantor would be coordinating the attack while Vader was in the battle, commanding the troops individually.

 

Baron Fel respected Vader, as we saw at Derra IV.

 

Well an orbital bombardment wouldn't have worked.Veers stated it himself. So they had to land outside the perimeter to deactivate the shield. Also, Osald (sp) is the one that came in to close to the system in the first place, so not everything is Vader's fault. His commanders were very lacking. This doesn't mean I think Vader was a genious at tactic, etc just that you need to keep somethings in mind when evaluating his performance.

 

Overall, Vader has a few moments. Tactically, he's probably a genius, but has no real strategic capacity. His assessment of Ozzel's blinding failure is due to the fact that the tactical situation has gone from a quick and easy surgical strike against the entire Rebel base into a fully fledged ground war.

But really, his Sith affiliation is what does him in. He practically sees another ISD get blown to oblivion by asteroids and doesn't care and sends his entire fleet into the asteroids to chase after ONE freighter.

To me though, the worst thing is how he kills Needa. Until about a year ago, I thought Needa was spared by Vader. Why else would Vader say "apology accepted"? and why would Needa be able to lift himself up as the gaurds were dragging him away? (watch closely) Needa actually accepted responsibility for his failure and was ready to face the full consequences, not blame some random subordinate like in the EU.

 

I don´t think Vader is a bad commander.

It was him, who planted the tracking-device aboard the Falcon in ANH, it was Vader, who took the rebel-attack on the DeathStar seriously enough to sent out fighters.

His original plan in TESB at Hoth might very well have ended the war, he trapped the Falcon at Bespin and prepared a new trap for Luke Skywalker should he escape after their duel (only to be foiled by R2-D2).

In RotJ he suggested to attack the rebels at Sullust and he wanted to take care of the rebellions infiltration-team immediately.

Unfortunately much of the EU isn´t very quotable, when it comes to tactics and strategies and in the few sources we see Vader in, he is more described as a bully.

 

FTeik:

I think that Vader was a good military commander, but not the best. I personally think that his skills were up there.

I view Vader as being more of a ground commander than commanding a fleet. Notice how he always has an admiral on hand to fight his fleet battles- Ozzel, Okins, Piett,etc.

When it comes to getting boots dirty, Vader always participates. Even though Veers was in command at Hoth, Vader landed immediately and wanted to take personal command of the situation.

--Adm. Nick

 

FTeik
His original plan in TESB at Hoth might very well have ended the war, he trapped the Falcon at Bespin and prepared a new trap for Luke Skywalker should he escape after their duel
SO, killing or capturing Leia, Luke and Han would end the Rebellion? Well, in the "law of genre" - yeah, they're the superheroes, them dead means Empire wins.
But speaking of logic, them lives are not important. Only Luke, perhaps.

And with Luke - a colossal failure. He went to capture the FALCON, while he had to blockade Hoth and wait for Luke to come!
JoruusCbaoth
Fel did not respect Vader much. Derra IV was a plan of Thrawn. That really bugged Fel. That is why he went to serve on for Thrawn in EotH.

I thought it's pretty clear that Derra IV is NOT Vader's plan, from "Making of Baron Fel" by M. Stackpole.

 

Vader was one of the best starfighter pilots in galactic history. And he was reasonably good at directly covert ops stuff.

 

A traitor to a leader unfit to command does not necessarily make him a traitor to the priciples of the Empire. Darth Vader represented much more the Imperial ideal of stability and order vs. Emperor Palpatine.

Darth Vader was a superior tactician all round. He recognized the threat of the Starfighters to the Death Star and attempted to deal with them personally when Grand Moff Tarkin refused to admit their threat. Darth Vader masterminded the brilliant Hoth campaign personally. Darth Vader furthermore handled dozens of other successful EU adventures.

I disbelieve that DV was a bad strategist. I think people aren't ascribing enough importance to the danger of Force users to the Imperial stability or the danger of corruption in the Empire.

Darth Vader knew Luke's importance to the Rebellion as the last of the jedi knights. Furthermore, Princess leia is the No. 2 woman in the Rebellion. If Mon Mothma is it's head, Leia is its heart. Taking her would yield invaluable information...eventually and demoralize the Rebellion. As Luke shows repeatedly, he is also capable of superhuman feats of destruction against the Empire.

The corruption fostered by Emperor Palpatine in the ranks of the military also needs extensive weeding by Darth Vader. Rightly or wrongly Vader, resents officers who do not take the same risks as their subordinates and recieve their positions through politics.

While Ozzel, Sarn, and Captain Needa seem the least of Vader's troublemakers (Sarn's fault seems to be attempting to pass some shavity Cloaking devices off on the Empire) the Dark Lord's executions are mostly well-deserved.

Admiral Harcov typlifies the loyalty shown the new order by senior flag officers along with the Huttenese Moff. A Admiral of the Empire is actually guilty of dealing arms and not for any Oliver North reasons.

Vader is certainly direct in his moves but his possession of the Noghri and the events of his removal of Black Sun from Corellia show he's capable of subtlety and long term thinking.

I believe him the ideal man to lead the Imperial forces personally.

I liken him somewhat to Alexander the Great in the fact he leads his troops from the front. Rebellion is dealt with swiftly and mercilessly by Lord Vader but aside from his disgust at politicians, the Dark Lord nevertheless is not sadistic either.

Compared to many Imperials at his peer range, Darth Vader only destroys that which is a sufficient lesson. Blaming him for not stopping the destruction of Alderaan is silly given the Emperor likely would have approved it.

Tarkin also seemingly outranked him at this time. He was not fully trusted with power at this point.

 

I believe him the ideal man to lead the Imperial forces personally.
Yep, I suggest he's not a bad leader. But still not a stratege like Thrawn.
And why the starfighter threat? Did Vader really know it was a threat? Don't make such statements; he could not have possibly known, except he knew the Death Star plans or was present when the DS tech made the analitics for the attack and figured out there was a threat.

Vader got up to shoot off the Rebels, as the turbolasers could not do that. He liked that kind of practice, as EU shows

Strategy is NOT about winning battles, it's about winning wars. That is long-term thinking and has to do with politics. Vader let Tarkin destroy Alderaan. That was a mistake. Strategic one.
And with getting LUKE, Vader got the lame thing. Vader went off from Hoth after the Falcon, and Luke could freely travel to Dagobah.

 

I disagree,

Alderaan was not necessarily a strategic mistake actually. Grand Moff Tarkin's strategy was that the destruction of Alderaan would sufficiently cow worlds that were officially unaligned with the Empire to obey.

There's some confusion actually whether or not Bail Organa had officially withdrawn Alderaan from the Empire at this time. Leia was an imperial senator (which would mean she would represent upwards from 50 to who knows how many worlds) but she might no longer be Alderaan planet's senator but Alderaan sectors.

Alderaan only became a titanic blunder when the Death Star was turned into space atoms. Many worlds were cowed by its 'example'

The world also was also the seat of the Rebellion in the Core.

But again it just wasn't Vader's place to stop it.

On the hand of Vader recognizing the danger that the starfighter's represented. His actions show a concern for the fighters. I believe vader DID realize the strategy of the rebels would only be if they knew there was a weakness.

Of course the novelization might hold more clues.

Vader as coordinator of the fleet also used probe droids, non-Imperial resources, and made many strategic decisions for rooting out a gurellia campaign against the Empire. I don't believe any other Imperials realized the need for utilizing low key force for victory.

Of course, it was technically Xizor's idea but Vader took it to heart.

 

Of course the novelization might hold more clues.
Maybe I was not very careful with the canon novel, but I didn't find any clues about the fighters.
I don't believe any other Imperials realized the need for utilizing low key force for victory.
Huh... I think probes were pretty used by every commander out there. They are something of a standard.
But as for the bounty hunters, their involvement helped to capture Han & Leia only because the IF personnel were incompetent.
And then again, the hunter's help did not help Vader to win, but made the officers antipathy him even more.

Then it's no wonder Pellaeon doesn't like Vader.

And as for his "right" killings, Ozzel's incompetence is a question. What would have it given the Imperials, be the fleet dropped earlier? The rebels already knew they are coming and put up the shield.

Coming farther would only made it longer to get to Hoth, thus giving more time for the Rebels to evacuated. But Vader did not suppose the Rebels KNOW of that. And wanted a farther exit.
If Ozzel knew about the destruction of the probe, or suggested it (by the abrupt break off transmission), he's really the competent guy.

 

Vader wanted to come out of hyper further out because, as stated by Rieekan, with all the meteroids and other debris in the system spotting approaching ships is difficult.

That would've allowed the Death Squadron to launch a clean bombardment, taking out the shield generator and ion cannon at extreme range before they could be brought online.

 

Ozzel dropped out of hyperspace TO CLOSE to the system, what allowed the rebels to detect the imperial fleet and to activate their shield.

Vaders original plan was probabely to exit hyperspace outside the system and then use the comets and asteroids of as cover to sneak up on Hoth and destroy the rebel-defenses with a clean bombardement (indicated by the radiodrama).

That would have allowed them to capture the rebel-base largely intact, including Skywalker and Co (and lots of other prisoners for interrogation).

 

Of course the novelization might hold more clues.
Maybe I was not very careful with the canon novel, but I didn't find any clues about the fighters.

It's only spec on my part. I gave away my novelization collection.

Huh... I think probes were pretty used by every commander out there. They are something of a standard.

Not according to The Empire Strikes back sourcebook. The idea of using probe droids to find Rebel Bases is pretty much Darth Vaders. Probe droids are primarily used as scouting machines rather than military tools.

But as for the bounty hunters, their involvement helped to capture Han & Leia only because the IF personnel were incompetent.

Given the Admirals we've seen the Empire use (did you read the X-wing series of comics?) that's not unbelivable.

I point to Admiral Daala as the type of Imperial Vader would have executed for endangering her personnel recklessly.

And then again, the hunter's help did not help Vader to win, but made the officers antipathy him even more.

The Rebellion's top commando team was diverted from valuable operations against the Empire to instead operations against Black Sun and Jabba the Hutt.

Vader's mercenaries furthermore struck many more times against successful targets. Only in odd cases like Kyle Katarrn did he not successfully have his prey brought in.

Then it's no wonder Pellaeon doesn't like Vader.

Pellaeon would do well to learn to respect his forebearers. Of course he's a superior officer now to Thrawn and company....though it only took him defeat and defeat.

And as for his "right" killings, Ozzel's incompetence is a question. What would have it given the Imperials, be the fleet dropped earlier? The rebels already knew they are coming and put up the shield.

Ozzel was a diversive element from the beginning. Even if the Rebel's knew, his days were numbered from the beginning.

 

The shield was already activated, TMM, after the destruction of the probe.
Remember Leia's "no ship can leave the system" from Rieekan?
Probe droids are primarily used as scouting machines rather than military tools.
Uh, wasn't that a scout mission? And if they did not use probes prior (although the probe droid stuff seems to be used much in the prequels, Maul for ex.)... how did they do the scouting? With ship sensors?
Given the Admirals we've seen the Empire use (did you read the X-wing series of comics?)
Yes, I do remember Lon Isoto! He's da man...
that's not unbelivable.
Well, there are many talented commanders in the Empire as well. Just about everyone around Thrawn is a talented guy. I doubt Vader would surround himself with fools. It was for his emotions that he killed the officers.
I point to Admiral Daala as the type of Imperial Vader would have executed for endangering her personnel recklessly.
Daala is unique remember, she just got that far by sleeping with GMT. She's the only woman to get up to an Admiral.
to instead operations against Black Sun
Uh, I think you are mistaken. Shadows of the Empire makes it clear the Rebels were thinking of a bargain with Black Sun.
Vader's mercenaries furthermore struck many more times against successful targets.
Using mercs is a tricky thing. They are not loyal and go by their interest. This means they are non-reliable. Especially if someone has more to offer them, than you do.
Of course he's a superior officer now to Thrawn and company....
Who? Pellaeon? When did he become superior? He's just the goon who lost nearly all battles. He's smart, but not the type of military genious like Thrawn.
Ozzel was a diversive element from the beginning.
This is because Piett showed him out in a bad way. Piett was a career-jumper. And there are another problems with Piett, particulary his lack of initiative in the Battle of Endor. So what did Vader do? Change the better and more experienced officer for a young guy who lost BoE.

 

Vader's mercenaries furthermore struck many more times against successful targets. Only in odd cases like Kyle Katarrn did he not successfully have his prey brought in.

Not really Vader's project. In Dark Forces Vader seemed to serve a function similar to the one he served during the Death Star project. Actual details were left up to the project head though who in this case would be General Moch.

 

Pellaeon outsmarted the Vong (though admittedly, Vorrik isn't exactly Tsavong Lah)

Darth Vader may have used Bounty Hunters because he wanted a force independent of the Imperial command structure, anwserable to him alone.

 

Daala is unique remember, she just got that far by sleeping with GMT. She's the only woman to get up to an Admiral.

No. As far as she knew, at the time she was the only woman. A second woman was promoted to Admiral, one Admiral Oxtroe. She was assasinated by Noghri assassins according to the Dark Empire sourcebook after she tried to negotiate peace with the New Republic.

 

Change the better and more experienced officer for a young guy who lost BoE.

I think it's unfair to say that Piett lost the Battle of Endor. After all, he stated that he had been ordered the keep the fleet out of battle by the Emperor because Palpatine was planning on using the DS II superlaser to destroy the Rebel fleet. This allowed the Rebels to move in once they realized that bringing their fleet closer to the Imperials would limit the firepower that the DS II could dish out. This led to many Imperial casualties, including the Executor.

I mean, there was one SSD and countless ISD's at Endor, along with their starfighter compliments. Do you really think that the Rebels would stand a chance if they were let loose?

 

The shield was already activated, TMM, after the destruction of the probe.

Details, Details. If not for Darth Vader's quick thinking then Ozzel would have ignored the probe droid's report to begin with.

Remember Leia's "no ship can leave the system" from Rieekan?

I believe that was for security concerns.

Uh, wasn't that a scout mission? And if they did not use probes prior (although the probe droid stuff seems to be used much in the prequels, Maul for ex.)... how did they do the scouting? With ship sensors?

No that was a "hunt down rebel bases" mission. A scouting mission is probe being sent onto planet to examine it for habitability, sentient species, take pictures...you know...what probes do.

Well, there are many talented commanders in the Empire as well. Just about everyone around Thrawn is a talented guy.

Pellaeon is the Wayland Smithers of the Empire.

I doubt Vader would surround himself with fools.

None of Vader's crew was hand picked unfortunately. The vast majority was assigned to him. Vader only hand picked his personal minions like Luminya, Henithar, Maarek Steele, and a few others.

It was for his emotions that he killed the officers.

Vader was pretty cold during it all. It was solely their failures.

Daala is unique remember, she just got that far by sleeping with GMT. She's the only woman to get up to an Admiral.

Honestly, I think it was far more the fact Daala was a fanatic than her sexual relationship with Tarkin. It takes a truly twisted woman to wait TEN YEARS before checking to see if anything is wrong. Either that or Daala is Imperialist Japanese.

Uh, I think you are mistaken. Shadows of the Empire makes it clear the Rebels were thinking of a bargain with Black Sun.

And we saw how that worked out.

Using mercs is a tricky thing. They are not loyal and go by their interest. This means they are non-reliable. Especially if someone has more to offer them, than you do.

And as vader knows "No one can outbid the Empire!"

Who? Pellaeon? When did he become superior?

When he survived.

Piett was a career-jumper. And there are another problems with Piett, particulary his lack of initiative in the Battle of Endor. So what did Vader do? Change the better and more experienced officer for a young guy who lost BoE.

Experience does not mean talent? Piett survived from ESB to RotJ so he was doing something right. Besides what could Piett have done differently with the fact they were being mind controlled?

 

Matthew, ^ Mohc.
Pelranius, yep, he did outsmart the Vong, albeit not Tsavong (I do wonder sometimes, was that "Tsavong Lah" name connected to the chinese mastermind Sun-Tzy...)

As for an independant force, Vader had plenty of loyal servants. Many high-ranking Imperials had stormtrooper divisions of their own and such.
Vader would not have any problems in having more loyal and more reliable people answering to him only. Even kinda like Palpatine's Hand.
Charlemagne19
If not for Darth Vader's quick thinking then Ozzel would have ignored the probe droid's report to begin with.
I guess this has nothing to do with Vader's thinking. More with the Force. He sensed Skywalker is there. That building could be really anything, smugglers or whatever.
I believe that was for security concerns.
Strange. The security was already broken by the probe, and they were preparing to evacuate already. And what could Han's departure do? He'd fly out and jump into hyperspace.
A scouting mission is probe being sent onto planet to examine it for habitability
So the probe droids were kinda civilian tech? Uh.. would that not contradict Force Commander? Tantor uses the probes quite a lot. Before BoH.
Pellaeon is the Wayland Smithers of the Empire.
He's smart enough to sign a peace treaty when he sees it's over. That is fine with him. I quess Dagon Niriz wasn't much of a genious too, but he was loyal and smart enough to grasp Thrawn's plans in the end.
None of Vader's crew was hand picked unfortunately.
Hmm... shame. I always thought, the "Death Squadron" was kinda elite, Vader's personal and etc... If it wasn't then it's no wonder they were doing so badly in the movies
It was solely their failures.
Always killing a man for one failure is not exactly good in a war. Thrawn did that "killing" once, but next time instead of killing, he promoted the ensign who lost Skywalker. This boosted the Chimaera's morale and made the crew more loyal and awed by GAT.
It takes a truly twisted woman to wait TEN YEARS before checking to see if anything is wrong.
I quess they were doing research. Besides, there was an order not to leave the Maw. And - not the least - leaving the Maw was also not an easy trick.
And we saw how that worked out.
It's the intention that matters. And it was not Vader who made the Rebels clash with Black Sun. It was the idiot Xizor, who called upon himself both Rebel and Imperial wrath. Had nothing to do with Vader's talents.
And as Vader knows "No one can outbid the Empire!"
There was a precedent when the alien head meant more to Boba Fett than Vader's task. And they battled because of it. "Outbid" is not only money. It's also power, security and other stuff. They can also criss-cross to make sure they're secure from all sides.
Piett survived from ESB to RotJ so he was doing something right.
Perhaps he was on the biggest and baddest ship of the Empire
Besides what could Piett have done differently with the fact they were being mind controlled?
That is, to say, Thrawn's theory. And they could not be fully mind-controlled. Only partly. And I doubt Vader did that. If he did, it was HE who had to be punished for Ozzel's and Needa's mistakes

 

We see in several sources that Thrawn wasn't entirely correct in his assesment of Lord Vader.

Admiral Coy had some respect for Vader. He died for it.

General Veers and Darth Vader actually appeared to have been close acquaintences if not outright friends. Veers was not executed even after he allowed an Imperial outpost to fall into the hands of the Rebels.

Admiral Piett, likewise was kept alive because he was competent. In RotJ Piett can actually admit to possible errors without fear of being executed by the Dark Lord.

"It's an older code my Lord, but it checks out. I was about to clear them. "

Vader too, was wllling to lead his troops personally into battle.