How Much Did The Jedi Cause Their Own Downfall?

So here's a proposition I wonder about. A few things come to mind here:

1) I believe that as of the beginning of TPM, the Jedi were a deeply dysfunctional organization - sclerotic, arrogant, too set in their ways, too unable to improvise or adapt to changing situations, too isolated and out of touch in their "ivory tower", and utterly unable to reform from within. I believe it was the will of the Force that the Jedi order be destroyed so that it could be reborn a generation later - more flexible, more humble, and, in the end, stronger.

2) I believe that the Jedi Order we see in the prequels is as responsible for its own destruction as Palpatine, Dooku, or Anakin are. They make one huge, mindboggling mistake after another all the way from the Siege of Naboo straight through to Order 66. Most critically, they mishandle Anakin completely; being in turns too easy on him when he is wrong and too blind or inflexible to see that sometimes when he rebels against their ways, he is right.

3) I believe all this is proven by the fact that Luke's New Jedi Order changed a huge number of things about the way that Jedi lived, fought, and interacted with the galaxy around them, and with the Force itself. The New Jedi Order was almost unrecognizable as being the successor to the old Jedi; and was far stronger because of it.

4) I believe that Lucas absolutely intended the story to show all of this when he wrote the series. The Star Wars saga is a story of death and rebirth: for Anakin himself, for the Skywalker family, and for the Jedi as a whole. I think he always intended for us to see that the Jedi needed to be destroyed in the form that they had existed, in order to reemerge stronger and better.

I have a lot of specifics in mind, but that's the basic overview. What do you all think of that?

 

Pretty much agree, but their downfall wasn't any cosmic consequence of the Force's will. Notice that Sidious took them down with very, very practical instruments: cunning, political acumen, and an extremely sharp intellect. This wasn't a simple cackling man in a black hood. The Jedi were too busy trying to pierce the shroud of the ethereal future rather than engaging in practical, everyday concerns.

Also, they have a tendency to assume that everything is always about them. Notice in Episode III, when talking about the Sith, Mace always talks about a plot to destroy the Jedi. While that may be the case, its interesting that very few Jedi characters actually voice any concern for the common man, despite being one of the most benevolent organizations in the Galaxy. The Jedi fail to consider that their being wiped out is inconsequential next to the prospect of trillions being enslaved under the heel of a brutal tyrant. The Republic is just noise to them - what matters is them and only them.

 

Pretty much agree, but their downfall wasn't any cosmic consequence of the Force's will. Notice that Sidious took them down with very, very practical instruments: cunning, political acumen, and an extremely sharp intellect. This wasn't a simple cackling man in a black hood. The Jedi were too busy trying to pierce the shroud of the ethereal future rather than engaging in practical, everyday concerns.

True. Then again, the will of the characters has just as much consequence as the will of the Force. This is part of why the future is clouded.

 

Pretty much agree, but their downfall wasn't any cosmic consequence of the Force's will. Notice that Sidious took them down with very, very practical instruments: cunning, political acumen, and an extremely sharp intellect.

True, but I don't think those things are necessarily mutually exclusive. The Force has a light side and a dark side by nature, and a Sith can be an instrument of the will of the Force every bit as much as a Jedi can.

But again, my point is that the Jedi were largely responsible for their own downfall. How did the Force affect this? Well, a lot of blindness for one... there was a lot the Jedi should have seen but didn't. They seemed out of tune with the Force. It wasn't speaking to them like it used to. And they sure seemed to have their luck run out.

 

I find the "ivory tower" comment peculiar. How does the symbol of an ivory tower apply to an Order of Jedi Knights whose duty is to travel the galaxy keeping the peace, defending the weak and innocent, and bringing forth justice to those who would do evil? They work with everyone, regardless of standing. I think the old Jedi Order were plenty humble. I definitely do not see how the New Jedi Order is any more humble than the old Jedi. In fact, I think they are less humble. As for adaptation.....maybe they were to set in their ways. They have a good excuse, their ways worked pretty well for about 900 years. It's hard to let go of something that worked so well, we have many examples of this in our own history.

I fully believe the Jedi Order in the prequels were portrayed as complete morons for the sake of the plot. I chalk it up to bad writing.

This is such a common perception and I just don't get it. It's like someone said it and then everyone agreed without even thinking about it. Have you read the post-ROTJ EU? How have things gone for the New Jedi Order, its members and the GA since its inception? How many Jedi have fallen to the dark side? How long did it take for the Sith to be reborn from the Jedi ranks? How has life been in the GA as a whole? War, strife, disunity and overall misery. Fast forward to Legacy and the Order has already basically been destroyed.

Yeah, the New Jedi Order is waaaayyy better than the old Order, things are going just swimmingly for them.

 

By protecting the Republic and the galaxy the protect the common man.

Yeah, mm-hmm. That's why they do everything they can to protect the Republic, even putting aside their ideals to fight a war for them. Yeah, those Jedi are so selfish. What a skewed view you have.

 

Except we don't see this in the PT. What we *do* see is Jedi sit in their temple and talk endlessly. Usually they complain about Anakin, babble on about the prophecy, or jabber mindless strategy regarding the war. At best, the Jedi are portrayed as diplomats with lightsabres.

Now there is something we agree on!

 

Lucas said at the time of TPM he deliberately wrote them to be negotiators. What did you want them to be exactly?

 

I largely agree that they claim some of the responsibility for their own demise, but would leave out anything about what Luke does or doesn't do with a new Jedi order after Return of the Jedi. There is no evidence of what he does or doesn't do in any of the films; if one cares about novels, comics, etc., that is fine, but Lucas obviously didn't answer these questions in his films, so it is up to the audience to imagine for themselves what comes next, at least until the Sequel Trilogy is written...

 

I do think the Jedi were part of an "idiot plot" that came about due to Lucas' writing himself into a corner. The Jedi (including Anakin, since he unquestioningly believed everything Palpatine told him) were portrayed as oblivious morons so that Palpatine could be smart enough to dupe them.

I also believe that they were "too sure of themselves," as Yoda said in AOTC. Maybe it's natural for them to feel that way, as they had not had their methods challenged in the thousand years since the Sith were last defeated. But at the same time, the fact that their code had not been revisited in so long, made it easier for Palpatine to exploit weaknesses in it. As Obi-Wan told Padme in ROTS (in the script, not sure it made it to screen), the Jedi were part of a plot hundreds of years in the making.

As far as Luke's New Order, it wasn't perfect, but I don't think the flaws in it could be summed up as "it should have been the Old Order." And when an Order deals with sentient beings, not all of them will do the right thing.

As far as the Jedi causing their own downfall--their downfall was 100 percent Palpatine's fault. Whatever the flaws of the Old Order, and I believe there were many, the blame lies with Palpatine.

 

Oh yes, and the old Jedi Order was fantastic. How many schisms did they have that led to massive Sith resurgences? Four, I think it was. The last one led to a millennium of warfare with the Sith nearly snuffing out the Jedi and the Republic on several occasions. Then let's see, there was Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Revan, Malak, Traya, Sion, Nihilus, now this new Sith Emperor fellow and a vertible army of new Sith Lords, and who knows how many more. That doesn't even count Dark Jedi. Yeah, the old Jedi were flawless in this regard. The years 5000 BBY - 1000 BBY can be seen as one gigantic bloodbath because of the Sith. In case you're bad at math, that's 4000 years, or 16% of the Republic's history. Then you can factor in the Mandalorian wars, various conflicts with Dark Jedi, etc, and the figure for war becomes closer to 20%.

Before Krayt and the Lost Tribe, there were roughly five individual Sith Lords who managed to get anywhere: Lumiya (killed within a year of resurfacing), Jacen (killed within a year of his ascension), Tahiri (redeemed), Kyp (redeemed), and Palpatine (killed). Even with the One Sith and the Lost Tribe, the latter of which strikes me as astoundingly incompetent, the NJO has a FAR better track record than the old Jedi Order. Now, Lumiya, Jacen, and Tahiri all ascended in 41 ABY, Kyp in 11 ABY, and Palpatine has been around until 10 ABY. That's roughly three years of actual Sith. Plus the three years of war against the Sith, 127 ABY - 130 ABY, and you're left with 6 years of Sith total. The Dark Jedi are not even worth counting. The old Jedi contended with more Dark Jedi during just the Clone Wars than the new Jedi ever did. Anyway, in case you're bad at math, I'll help you. The New Republic was formed in 5 ABY, the GA fell in 130 ABY. So, 125 years. 6 years would represent 4.8% of that history. This slightly more than a fourth of the time that the old Jedi dealt with Sith.

Now, you spoke of war. Yes, the GA has had a lot of suffering, but that comes with the territory of having the Galaxy shattered by the Empire and later the Vong. Moreover, every competent individual is either dead or burnt out. But did the old Jedi do much better? How many times did the Sith catch them with their pants down? Many. They just watched and waited while Mandalorian hordes were pillaging the Outer Rim, sitting safely on Coruscant while the Republic struggled. I mean, really, 900 years of tenuous peace don't really measure up to millennia of war where Jedi repeatedly dropped the ball.

 

I believe the Jedi were deeply flawed and needed to be removed from power. Anakin in my opinion would be fully justified in leaving the order and even opposing it. Anakin's great mistake was running into the arms of the sith. He should have been brave enough and strong enough to take a stand on his own.

Palpatine claims the Jedi were more concerned with keeping their own power than anything else and he is correct. Mace Windu oversteps the mark when he goes to kill Palpatine. Killing an unarmed prisoner goes against everything they stand for. Murdering the Supreme Chanclor without trial goes against everything the Republic stands for.

I have previously mentioned what a heinous act using the clones were.

The Jedi had become arrogant and disinterested with the common man. Obi Wan, probably, one of the kindest and down to earth Jedi displays a very snobbish attitude to Jar Jar and Anakin. The librarian seems to believe the Jedi records to be perfect and incapable of error. Even Yoda accepts the jedi have grown arrogant.

Going back to my first point the Jedi have serious problem with hypocrisy. Yoda calmly tells Anakin to accept and not mourn the death of his loved ones. Yet at the same time he grips his heart in pain when he sense his fellow Jedi dying. He takes the death of the younglings very hard and is visibly mourning their passing.

Basically Obi Wan's fight with Anakin sums up most of their weaknesses. Obi Wan tries to be the voice of reason, but when Anakin expresses his opinion about Palpatine, Obi Wan immediately shuts him down. Obi Wan serves DEMOCRACY. The Jedi should serve the FORCE.

 

Obi Wan serves DEMOCRACY. The Jedi should serve the FORCE.

This is an f-ing brilliant point. I started a thread over in the Clone Wars section where I question whether, in The Clone Wars, the Republic and the Jedi are really sort of the bad guys. This really ties into that in showing that the Jedi have become so involved with, and so intertwined with, the Republic, that they find themselves unable to see when the Republic might be in the wrong. They grumble a little about some of Palpy's excesses, but they're never as suspicious of him as they ought to be; at least not until it's way too late.

 

Entirely.

By fighting the Sith they induced their own needless downfall. They should have let Palpatine be.

 

This isn't even the Old Jedi Order, its the Old Old Jedi Order. They changed the rules around 1000 BBY. None of this applies to the Old Order I'm talking about. I'm not saying the Old Order was perfect, but I don't see how the New Order is any better.

900 years of relative peace and harmony > whatever the New Jedi Order could claim.

I'm not getting into some drawn out debate over it, I'm just pointing out the growing sentiment of contempt for the Old Order, along with the love for the New Order, is very peculiar to me.

 

Here's another specific: Anakin should never have been given to Obi-Wan to train. It should have been obvious that Qui-Gon's death, and the fact that training Anakin was Qui-Gon's dying wish, made Obi-Wan too personally and emotionally involved with the situation.

But we know this. Obi-Wan even admits it in ESB. He says Yoda should have trained Anakin.

But you know what? I disagree with that. You know who I think should have trained Anakin? Mace Windu. Yes, I know Mace didn't want to, because he was extremely skeptical of the prophecy and suspicious of Anakin. But you know what? That's exactly why it should have been Mace that was given the responsibility of training him. Anakin needed to be placed with someone who was going to keep an eye on him and keep him on a short leash. And Mace was unquestionably powerful and imposing enough to keep Anakin in line - I don't think Anakin would have been doing a whole lot of back-talking with him.

But as I said, the Jedi horribly mishandled Anakin.

 

I don't think he should have been trained at all, but if someone had to do it, it should have been Mace.

 

I found this interesting as Yoda clearly did not approve. Cleary thought it would end in disaster.

Yet he gave it the green light.

 

See, that's where I disagree. What if they didn't serve the Republic? What if they decided that, if the Republic did not support them, then the Republic should be destroyed? After all, they are not serving the Republic, they are serving the Force. Who is interpreting the Force? The Jedi are. No one else can; it's their dogma, after all. Therefore, the Jedi could argue that the Force wills it that the Republic be destroyed by their hand. It's a very slippery slope, and it was their service to the Republic that really prevented them from being a sinister cult like the Sith.

The Jedi should have served the people, not Palpatine. There were ten years in between when Palpatine was elected and when the Clone Wars began in which action could have been taken, and I think even the Jedi Council were enticed by the fantasy of a charismatic strongman taking control above the tumult of democracy. After all, they are not a democracy - they are a hierarchic religious order and democracy is a concept they themselves do not practice. In the ROTS novel, it was said that even Mace Windu was initially a strong supporter of Palpatine.

The Republic weren't necessarily the bad guys. I mean, look at the conduct of the war and you see far more butchery coming from the Separatists.

 

Uhm... isn't this is exactly the justification Palpatine gave for Order 66?

 

And there's a kernel of truth in it, if taken separately from the fact that it is coming from the mouth of a Sith Lord. I'm not saying that Palpatine was right, but the argument is still a valid one. If the Jedi follow an ethereal energy that few else can understand or experience, what would stop them from concluding that it is the will of the Force that the Republic be destroyed, per their interpretation? After all, who watches the watchmen?

Order 66 was not justified, but the idea that a Jedi Order serves nothing but the Force, which they interpret, and therefore serve themselves, is dangerous.

 

I have not read much post-VOTF EU but hearing about how every Jedi seems to fall to the dark side seems like a cheap and repetitive way to get tension into the story. This convinces me that the NJO is just as much a victim (if not more) of bad writing as the OJO. I can accept them being made arrogant, such as when Jocasta Nu brushed off the possibility that Planet X doesn't exist if it's not in the archives (I think that's one piece of evidence for the ivory tower theory). In fact, I like the idea that they fell from within. But unresolved Sifo Dyas subplot turns the Jedi into willfully blind idiots. Lucas had James Luceno do it for him in Labyrinth of Evil and that it is better than nothing. But it still leaves the movies incomplete and I don't think I'll ever get over that. The OJO as flawed was simply a good idea that was executed badly.

 

Allowing the Republic to be destroyed goes against the Jedi's duty as gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy. It's like telling them to allow a Sith Lord to continue ripping the galaxy apart with his wargames and that's something they cannot do. Plus, abandoning the Republic is just the excuse that PalpSidious needs to turn the Republic against the Jedi thus giving him justification for his "Order 66" massacre upon the Jedi.

 

Allowing the Republic to be destroyed goes against the Jedi's duty as gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy.

So they keep their pledge of maintaining peace by leading an enormous war that kills millions of sentient beings, rather than letting a bunch of systems that are governed by a parliament just go and do their own thing?

Great plan.

 

That jeopardizes the security of the Republic. Consider the fact that Separatists have been actively conquering worlds and you'll see that simple secession really isn't on their mind. Moreover, they are all over the Galaxy. Unless worlds aside from the Outer Rim are ceded to the Republic, war is pretty much inevitable. There is such a thing as sphere of influence after all.

Are we even sure the Confederate Parliament even controls a sizable portion of Confederate territory? Take a look at this image: Separatist Congress. I count approximately 90 members there. Either the Separatists are deceptively small or these people have little practical power. Where are all the corporate types actually running the show? Where is Grievous? Ventress? So these people claim to be the CIS when they have zero involvement in the day-to-day conduct of the war besides entering very likely illegal negotiations with Amidala? For a treaty that would never have been respected anyway.