main
side
curve

Lit How much power did Mara Jade as Emperor's Hand actually have (on paper)?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JohnLydiaParker, Sep 1, 2022.

  1. JohnLydiaParker

    JohnLydiaParker Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Reading late-written books that detail Mara's time as the Emperor's Hand, one thing that occurred to me is that, legally, she is very powerful. She can commander a Star Destroyer on a whim, and her orders must be obeyed. When in Dark Force Rising she told Thrawn that "when she spoke, even Grand Admirals had to listen," she wasn't exaggerating. Back when the Emperor was alive she could quite legitimately have told Thrawn which of his ships she would be taking for her own use, without being required to give any justification whatsoever. She was a low unto herself, and had no problem in Allengeince killing a Planatery Governer who she discovered was guilty of treason, not only without consulting Palpatine but without even telling him she was investigating a pirate gang at all. She was perfectly willing to do it entirely on her own authority. It's unclear is there is any official limit on who she's allowed to kill, even Grand Moffs, or whether it's just "whatever Palpatine will approve of after the fact," but I suspect it's the latter.
    In a sense, she was not only the Emperor's Hand, but whenever she spoke, she spoke with Palpatine's authority. Which, of course, was absolute. She holds arbitrary power of life and death over every single being in the Galaxy other than Vader and the Emperor. Defiance of her orders is treason against Palpatine himself, which she seems to have forgotten momentarily was no longer the case when meeting Thrawn after she betrayed her. Literally the only checks on her power are a direct countermanding order from Palptine (which would of course be somewhat if entirely after the fact), the mission Palpatine has assigned her (although if she discovers something more pressing she can attend to that first on her own authority) her own internal sense of ethics, of right and wrong, and her own personal sense of loyalty to Palpatine and to act in (which she decides are!) his and the Empire's best interests.

    That's it. If you've noticed, only the first and relatively weak one is actually something there's not her internal thoughts and values, and the only one that anybody else would know if she's not doing what she should be. Also, nobody has any way of confirming that she has or hasn't actually mentally communicated with the Emperor through the force. She answers only to Palpatine, and is accountable only to him.
    Now imagine if somebody given that much power and authority with so little checks on it decided to go rouge, or conduct some personal mission or scheme. Mara Jade has Palpatine as the only family she has, and has had him from about age 8 or so, maybe younger. She was semi-raised by him, which was combined with his training, and is absolute devotion to duty, all the time. "Those that suspected there was something more to be began to fear me lest I be turned on them," but it would hardly even occur to her to abuse her authority, let alone actually abuse it.

    Now compare it to the other Hand's we've seen. None of them were semi-raised by Palpatine, nearly all of them had personal agendas, plots and personal schemes. Completely different, and that's why I'm of the opinion Mara Jade was the only Hand - nobody else who's been written to date would be the type of person who could safely be entrusted with that kind of extremely absuable power!

    (For what it's worth Zahn is on the record as saying his personal headcannon has Mara Jade as the only hand.)

    (Interesting thought experiment - during ANH, Tarkin and the captive Leia are on the overbridge of the first Death Star, with Aldareen on the display screen. Vader isn't present (or what if he is?), but watching silently is Mara Jade. Leia seemingly gives the location of the Rebel base, and Tarkin orders the destruction of the planet anyway. Now, would Mara have the authority to countermand his orders and tell him exactly which planets he would and wouldn't be destroying? If Tarkin couldn't be convinced by armaments of her authority, would she have been within her rights to draw her lightsaber and cut him down? Would the stormtrooper compliment of the Death Star back her? Considering nothing I've found provides a clear answer to that question, that itself shows what kind of authority she had.)
     
  2. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    I just finished reading Allegiance and The Choices of One, and I also re-read the Thrawn Trilogy in the spring. This question was one that came to my mind, but I noticed another factor at play that severely limits Mara’s authority and power.

    The Emperor’s Hand is largely considered a myth in the Imperial Military. Mara’s high level access codes earn her some compliance from top commanders. But many others view her as nothing more than an overrated errand girl. Even Palpatine viewed her with some veiled contempt. We see this when she mentions sparing General Deerian in Allegiance.

    Captain Ozzel receives the Emperor’s Hans aboard his Star Destroyer and acknowledges her authorization code. And promptly collides with the ISB colonel aboard his ship to have her killed. The fact that she’s Palpatine’s personal agent barely comes into his decision making process (and when it does, the ISB colonel shuts it down fast).

    The truth is that very few Imperials found Mara to be convincing in the slightest. Moreover, Palpatine never intervened on her behalf, as far as we saw. In fact, Mara seems very reluctant to call on his aid at all.

    In the example you mention, Tarkin is the unquestionable commander of the Death Star. He is the ultimate authority aboard that station, answerable only to the Emperor himself. Not to his emissaries or agents, just to Palpatine directly. Even Vader was subservient to him, or as close as subservience as Vader got to anyone other than Palpatine.

    Mara would have no authority to command Tarkin and if she did draw her lightsaber on him (extremely unlikely, given his close relationship to the Emperor), Tarkin’s troopers would not have hesitated to shoot her down.

    The Emperor is an aloof, reclusive presence in the Empire. While he does hold ultimate authority, much of that authority is ceded to his top servants.

    Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn and of course Mara Jade. But unlike the other three, Mara was a shadow agent. A ghost in the machine of the Empire. Moreover, given her naïveté and moral leanings, Palpatine kept her far away from the sinister side of the Empire.

    Her duty was to eliminate corruption and make surgical strikes. Her duties sometimes would require her to commandeer Imperial forces, but for the most part she worked alone. Moreover, Palpatine kept a very close watch on her. Had she reached out to him on the Death Star, his likely response would have been to tell her to stand down, and that would be that.
     
    JohnLydiaParker, cthugha and Gamiel like this.
  3. ColeFardreamer

    ColeFardreamer Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Just check her WEG stats! [face_whistling]

    PS: Mara's power may in part be lent from Palpatine even. Given him remote calling her, how about him remote controlling her like Snoke? I am sure that did happen. And in that case she could draw from his power arsenal at the cost for not his but her own body. But whenever disconnected she was on her own and quite less powerful in terms of raw power.

    Other Emperor's Hands served other functions than her and thus did not need to be comparable at all. There still is the question if Mara is a clone, or if Shira is, and that would also shed more light on her role and separation from the others.

    Also in the Empire, authority is not something that comes naturally. It is earned like a predator, like in the Sith hierarchy. If you can claim it, you can have it. If not, you do not deserve it. So whoever can reinforce his argument and defend it, even by violence, kinda is proven to have authority like in a trial by combat or will of the gods. Hence it did not matter if she held rank or had authority by code zylinder but rather if she could back it up should anybody decline to comply. Tarkin certainly could given his new canon redneck background!
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
    JohnLydiaParker likes this.
  4. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    My impression on it is that "on paper," there's very little available to view for all but a handful of sentients. Outside of that small circle of people who know who and what she is? Presumably, all senior Imperial officers are given a list of code words and instructions that, if someone you don't know utters one of these phrases, you're to place yourself at their complete disposal. Anything more than that is need-to-know.

    You are, of course, free to say "nope. I don't believe you. I think you're a Rebel who hacked into my network and I'm not ready to obey you without independent verification through my own chain of command." At which point it gets kicked up the chain... and you'd better pray that you're right, otherwise you might be in for a world of trouble!

    (Mara, in turn, is free to try to Force choke you or hold a lightsaber at your throat or whatever to force the issue).

    Honestly, I think Palpatine intentionally sets up things like to be as vague as possible and then is happy to let his tin soldiers clash against each other.
     
  5. Vialco

    Vialco Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Sounds a lot like Sidious. As long as his subordinates are jousting amongst each other for power and position, they’re not thinking about unseating him and rising up to take his place. It’s quite telling that only a select few top Imperials even hoped of overthrowing Palpatine and seizing his throne.

    Gentis, Trachta and Zaarin are the only three who come to mind as having actually attempted a coup. Other such as Tarkin, Vader and perhaps even Thrawn only dared to dream and secretly plot treason.

    On the subject of Mara Jade however, we actually see what all of her authority amounts to when the Emperor is dead.

    Absolutely nothing.

    As soon as Palpatine is announced as having perished at Endor, Isard has Mara arrested and she’s forced to flee her home with nothing but her clothes and lightsaber. All her Imperial authority and position stemmed solely from the Emperor and as soon as he perished, it vanished like a drop of dew on Tatooine. I’m actually reminded of Mas Amedda in Canon, who wielded immense power as the Grand Vizier, but only did so because he spoke with the Emperor’s Voice. As soon as Palpatine perished, virtually no one in the Empire heeded Amedda’s words anymore.
     
  6. JohnLydiaParker

    JohnLydiaParker Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2019
    That's pretty much her main limitation, people failing to listen to her.

    IIRC, and it's been longer since I've read it then you have, Captain Ozzel planned to simply do what Mara said and leave it at that. It was the ISB agent who suggested it, Ozzel objected on the grounds she's Palpatine's personal agent, and the ISB agent convinces him otherwise. (And notes he would have killed Ozzel if he hasn't gone along with it.)

    Alright then, the structure at the top of the Empire isn't very clear, on purpose of course. It was more of a "does's Mara's authority override Tarkin's in the case?" and the answer is no.

    All very true. (Personally I think Palpatine (since the radio play makes clear he was not consulted on the target planet, and apparently actually ranks between the moves and all other EU material in terms of cannon, (other than format-required adaptions) was politically savvy enough to instruct Mara to tell Tarkin than Aldereen is politically about the second-worst possible type of target (after absolutely New Order all the time), due to the poor nature of the messages it would send ,but that's a discussion for a different thread.)
     
    Vialco likes this.
  7. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    We can assume almost none, as paper is not very good at holding abstract concepts in the first place and it's not even clear if paper exists in Legends canon.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
  8. JohnLydiaParker

    JohnLydiaParker Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Of course paper exists in the SW universe! Everything in real life does, they just rename it. Usually it's easy enough, for example permacrete or duracrate = concrete, durasteel=steel, that type of thing. (Having RPG sources sitting around is helpful in this regard. It's under the name flimsiplast, although apparently durasheet also has been used somewhere. I've used flimsiplast twice in my writing, once in Mara Jade's origin story (which never got a proper name in hindsight), and the other in the X-wing story (novel, really, considering the length) Fleet Action: The Thrawn Campaigns, which hopefully should begin posting in the next few weeks. (Basically what Rouge Squadron was up to during Thrawn's offensive.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
  9. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    No, apparently it's called "paper" and the reason I'm thinking it didn't exist is because the old RPG said as much. In any case since it seems to be rarely if ever used we can safely assume Mara Jade didn't put power on it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 50x Wacky Wed/3x Two Truths/28x H-man winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Real DuraSteel isn't actually an alloy but a composite of fire-resistant materials (sandwiched between metal layers). I think in the past it contained asbestos, but not these days.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022
    Vialco likes this.
  11. fett 4

    fett 4 Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 2, 2000
    In Vision of the Future though Parck says Mara was really important and didn't Zahn confirm it in an interview ?
     
  12. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord 50x Wacky Wed/3x Two Truths/28x H-man winner star 10 VIP - Game Winner

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the context of Doriana being important.

    "I believe only a single one of Palpatine's ships remained capable of flight, and that only because Thrawn wanted some of the invaders left alive to interrogate.
    "Fortunately for that remnant, and perhaps one day for the galaxy as a whole, among the survivors was the leader of the task force, one of Palpatine's advisers. A man named Kinman Doriana."
    Mara swallowed. That name she most certainly did remember. He'd been Palpatine's right-hand man, supposedly one of the grand architects of his rise to power. "I've heard it, yes," she said.
    "I thought you would have," Parck said, nodding. "Very much a shadow adviser—few people ever even heard his name, let alone knew his true position and power. But among those who did it was sometimes speculated that his untimely death left a gap which Palpatine ultimately tried to fill with three other people: Darth Vader, Grand Admiral Thrawn—" He smiled again. "And you."
    "You're too kind," Mara said evenly, not even a whisper of pride rising within her at such a statement. So she had indeed had position and authority in Palpatine's eyes, perhaps more than even she had realized.
    But it didn't matter. That part of her life had died, unmourned, a long time ago.


    As portrayed in Outbound Flight, Doriana isn't a mighty Force user, or a great military strategist - but he is a good covert agent. So in that context, the claim "he was replaced by 3 people - Mara, Vader, and Thrawn" is truer for Mara than it is for the other two.
     
    cthugha, JohnLydiaParker and Vialco like this.
  13. Foreign32567

    Foreign32567 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2021
    Agree. Also they were both tasked with missions that were extremely important for Palpatine - bribing and intimidating senators before the Chancery election, obtaining Spaarti cylinders/ killing Luke, but in the same time both were kept in the dark about Palpatine's true nature, although differently.
     
    Vialco and Iron_lord like this.
  14. JohnLydiaParker

    JohnLydiaParker Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 14, 2019
    Interesting. No idea that a real-world material used that name. Of course, the writers had no idea either, particularly in the pre-widespread internet era, and considering the way other materials are named it's a safe assumption it has nothing to due with the real life fire-resistant material and that it's just a common structural metal, filling the same role steel does in real life. It's named that to distinguish that it's "more advanced stuff/not the stuff in our universe" while also making it very easy for the reader to envision what it is, so the reader can simply assume it's "like steel" in terms of what it is.These "new" materials presumably have better material properties, but it's just a writing convention for the SW universe.

    I'm assuming this is a joke that lasted about a post longer than would have been ideal? I mean, we all know that "on paper" in this context is just a common saying, don't we?
     
    Iron_lord likes this.
  15. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    I never joke. “Really serious Ramza,” that’s what they call me. “The Po Faced Poster.”
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2022