I really didn't like Legacy of the Force!

So I've been out of the Star Wars book loop for a while - at least as far the later classic era novels go. I got half way through the train wreck that was the Uvang Vong story arc a couple of years back and just plain gave up. But being unemployed and with unlimited access to the library, I decided to set out and read more. The first up was the Legacy of the Force story arc.

Well, looks like I'm done with Star Wars again. Blech! It made the Vong story arc look like freaking Citizen Kane in comparison!

First of all, can we please get a restraining order to keep Karen Travesty at least 500 yards away from Star Wars at all times? Seriously, when you're making Kevin Anderson look skilled, you know you are in desperate trouble. And what the hell was the point of shoehorning in Boba Fett every other book? He didn?t actually DO anything or interact with the main plot in any meaningful way whatsoever (aside from the killing Evil Solo - so take your action scene and bow out). Even worse, the whole fixation on how Astoundingly Cool and Awesome the Mandalorians Are(tm) and just how much the Jedi suck was a huge load of crap.

Of course how tightly Luke and his buddies were clutching the Idiot Ball, they really did suck. "I've beat you, Jacen, but I'm not going to finish the job because it might taint me!" over and over again. Luke should have put the beatdown on Jascen at least twice but let him off the hook because they had to pad out the novel count.

And then what the hell was up with the Tahiri rapes Ben scene? I'm sorry, did I somehow start reading a Conan book by accident or something? Really, the "Hey, lets get our pedophile groove on" moment was more appropriate in a Heinlein book from his Dirty Old Man phase. It's certainly not Star Wars, a light fluffy Republic Adventure serial.

And then there was the constant "I served with Vader, and he was a really good fellow. He really cared about the men under him!" early on in the arc. Um, did wake up in a paraelle universe where Vader wasn?t choking admirals left right and center for really stupid transgressions? No, he was not a good fellow who cared about his men. He was a total bastard!

Oh, which brings me to my next point: who thought it was a good idea to put a freakin' war criminal in charge of the galaxy? Putting aside that Daala is one of the biggest villains of the galaxy, she's wildly incompetent. Christ, this would be like putting Moe Larry and Curley in the presidency after they did a stint running Auschwitz!

Speaking of Villains, the series spends all this time bigging up Jacen as one of the most powerful sith of all time and yet he does nothing to actually EARN that title. Hell, Palpatine would be able to out-scheme this whiner in his sleep. This is putting aside the curb-stomping that Luke delivers. (this runs parallel with Fett, who is suppose to be this hugely massive threat, retribution incarnate lurking the shadows ready to extract vengeance for his kid getting killed. . . and doesn?t actually do anything except punch Jaina in the stomach for no reason.

And why did the Jedi jump right to "Assassination is the only option"? Luke tried talking to the second most evil man in galaxy first, and yet couldn?t be bothered with his nephew? Or why didn?t the Jedi have Jacen on the carpet early on the story arc, when he first started kicking in doors and stomping around all in black.

And lastly. . . the force lets you time travel? Seriously? *facepalm*

Sigh. I miss the days of the old Brian Daley books or the X-Wing series, where not everything shook the galaxy to the core or revolved around a Skywalker. Well, if there's a bright side to this, at least I didn?t pay a dime for any of the books and I have the new series of Doctor Who this weekend to wash the bad story-telling taste out of my mouth. But yeah, if this is the level of the Star Wars story telling, someone wake me up in 10 years when someone else gets the license.

 

It's actually my favorite series of novels post ROTJ, next to the Thrawn Trilogy. It feels like SW to me, and doesn't have ridiculous elements such as Yuuzhan Vong, Killiks etc. But that's just me.

 

I'm not going to defend LOTF, since I agree with several of your points, but I just figured I'd clarify that flow-walking isn't time travel.

It's just like looking at a still life of the past and splodging ink stains on it. The original image doesn't change -- if you painted a plate of oranges, the oranges are still oranges. All you've done is splat paint on the picture in your mind.

 

I hate to say it, really really hate to say it, and never tell Sin that I said this, but maybe I don't hate LotF as much as I used to.

Ditto what Zorr said, plus I would also comment on your opinion of troops 'liking' Vader.

Like you said, Vader choked and killed Admirals and other incompetent officers --- that only REINFORCES why the 'average-Joe' soldier loved him! Suppose you were a random stormtrooper, and you had some idiot officer always messing up or needlessly putting your life in danger -- wouldn't you be, just a little happy, to see them get force-choked and tossed on the ground

More importantly, Vader was constantly on the front lines during battles...average grunts on the front lines love when leaders do that!

Now sure, it's not like Vader 'cared' about them per se, but they didn't know that. His actions gave the perception that he cared, and perception in this case equals reality.

Answer me this -- if you were a stormtrooper attacking a rebel base, would you choose to have Vader there fighting on the front lines with you or not? I sure as hell would...I feel like my survivability would increase dramatically.

 

Well ya lost me right there.

 

2008 called. It wants its thread back.

 

El Kabong, my good fellow, you should read this thread, specifically the parts dedicated to LOTF: http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/28502184/p1

It will be well worth your time. I guarantee it.

 

Yeah, it was a bit of a rocky series. Where the rises and pitfalls are depends on a person's opinions on the writer in question.

 

I still hold that the worst part of the entire series was having Jacen at the mercy of those Mandalorians. There is no better way to make the pitiful villain look even more pitiful. Although how Jacen took over by creating that law with the droid was also completely illogical. But Traviss couldn't waste her time figuring out a realistic way for Jacen to take power, afterall she had to get back to her "boys"...

 

Okay, so if it's not time travel, then what's the big secret deal about it. Couldnt jedi already do that? Isnt this ability pretty much just what Yoda was talking about with "Through the force, things you will see" bit? It just seemed unnecessarily over complex.

And I would have been fine with that . . . IF Boba Fett actually did something that had ANY bearing on the plot whatsoever. Okay, he has his hands in getting the ball rolling and if they had toned down the "Hey, we're really freaking awesome! Did I mention how really awesome we are. Hold on, let me check. Yep, we're still Awesome!!!" at the end, I'd probably have been okay with it - but why the hell (aside from padding out the page count) did The Fett Family Soap Opera have to do with the rest of the universe falling apart?

Twice actually (not counting the Madalorians there at the end), or was that not Luke in the fighter totally powning Jacen towards the end of the series?

Oh sorry, she was a pedophile molesting a minor. That sounds SO much better. And regardless of what it was, that kind of level of sexual deviancy does not belong in a Saturday morning adventure serial (beyond Ming lusting after Ardala and ordering his minions to prepare her for the wedding).

Speaking of sex, a GOOD point in the series' favor was the gay couple. I thought that was pretty cool.

This word neutral, I do not believe I am familiar with it. Does it mean absolutely bugnuts murderous psychopathic? Dude, she was whipping around with a Death Star trying to blow up Kessel. She wanted to smash a Star Destroyer into Courscant - that's not neutral, that's full blown Supervillian territory. Lex Luthor would have been proud.

Who got ponwned on a fairly regular basis. Hell, a bunch of non-force using mercenaries almost killed him until someone evoked "Nobody can defeat you but me" clause and let him escape so Jaina can kill him next book.

Ugh, please. No thank you.

Dude, he beat a prisoner to death with his bare hands (mostly). Why the Jedi didn't a squad of knights down there to drag him before the council for a full accounting of his actions right there and then is beyond me - well aside from having to drag out this train wreck for another 6 books. Serioiusly, he was acting like a total thug and NOBODY bothered to call him on it?

 

I'm just on page two now, and it's a comedy gold mine so far!

 

Lil' Ben waltzed away from everything he did in LotF without anyone apparently (in my own opinion) considering him responsible for anything he did, in my opinion he himself included. So why would Jacen killing one assassin be a big deal for anyone in the Jedi Order, when Ben was the mind behind the occupation of Ossus and the massacre on Kashyyyk and nobody seems to care...?

Jacen's old dad himself once spaced a man from an airlock in the first Daley book. Never bothered Han's conscience either I recall... Just like taking part in the murder of his own cousin. Leia betrayed GA in Betrayal and helped to kill GA soldiers - clear conscience apparently there too. Luke and Cilghal did a bit of torturing in DN, no regrets based on what I remember. Jaina sending pilots on suicide missions in DJ has never bothered her conscience either I think, but when Jacen kills Boba Fett's daughter - a hired contract killer - he's beyond the pale.

 

Ben suggesting to level Kashyyyk was just another example of eye-rollingly bad character derailment, and yes he probably should have gotten some stick for that too. Han spacing a fellow - well, he's not a Jedi so he's playing in a whole 'nother league. And bad tho it may have been, it wasn't anywhere near the same level as torturing a person to death.

But that's not the point of contention for me. If Han murdered someone in front of cops, then I'd fully expect him to be in a world of crap. But Jacen murdered a defenseless person while basically being a policeman and not one member of the Jedi council went "Holy crap, this is way over the line. We need to do something about this!"

 

Sorry - this bit got edited out from my first post:

No, no they didn't. Not once did anyone in the Solo/Skywalker clan make a genuine effort to talk to Jacen, get to the root of the problem or go "Hey, what's going on" and actually getting a straight answer out of him. EVERY time someone tried, he went "Oh, I'm too busy to talk now". Meanwhile Luke threw up his hands and went "He's gone to the dark side! What can I do?". He was hostile and coming from the wrong headspace to talk to Jacen - and this was the guy who was damned and determined to talk to the Second Most Evil Person in the Universe! It was a halfassed attempt every step of the way, EVERY single time.

 

I definitely understand most of the complaints with LOTF, and agree with a good chunk of them... but am I the only one that doesn't have a problem with flow walking? I actually think it is a potentially cool power, if it is written well. Of course, I have yet to reach the LOTF and beyond series, so I can't comment on its actual usage.

 

Just you wait till you get to the LOTF parts!

 

I, too, always thought it was a rather intriguing power with a lot of potential if used properly. Given that it hasn't really been used in any way that fans seem to like, and everyone seems to be on the 'let's hate everything Troy Denning's ever done' bandwagon these days, it's not a surprise. It's too far from the spectrum of normal that most people don't seem to get it.

Personally, I never had a problem with it either. I've always liked time travel stuff. I liked it even more before the retcon.

 

It was the end of SW for me. I come here about once a month now to look around, not signed in, and rarely post. I hope that someday SW will be redeemed, but I think that was the death knell of my SW. I like the TCW, but it's not really the same thing, of course.

There was no reason IMO to have ruined Jacen like that. It was not drama, it was just empty. I even get these two series confused all the time, I haven't read past the last book with Leia on the cover. Whatever that is. I will wait for the paperbacks.

 

Yes, it did, boy was it ever a disaster. There were a few almost decent moments, and it has its defenders (as you can see), but ugh, the worst thing about it was what a waste of characters and potential it was with no progress to show for it. Fortunately we don't have to put up with Mando viewpoints anymore (not that there is anything inherently wrong with Mandos playing a role, its just that those novels were some of the worst SW novels I've had the misfortune to read which leads to bad memories involving Mandos now), but yeah, don't bother reading the follow-up Fate of the Jedi series, its arguably worse in several ways. Of course when the series starts with a situation where Daala is Chief of State you know its stupid.

Even if we accept most people don't remember Daala's history or don't care (like Dantooine and Mon Calamari, who aren't happy about it, which has only been acknowledged outside of a main nine-book series), I still think there's kind of the problem of Daala not even being part of either the GA, Confederation or Jedi (at least until Niathal threw her support behind her). Yes, that made her sorta neutral, but then a janitor or some random pirate might make as good a candidate to be the next Chief of State too in terms of neutrality too. And that doesn't excuse how it happened completely off-screen with no explanation for it. Not sure if they have bothered with an explanation since, not much point to it since they've already moved onto the next train wreck.

I won't bother ranting too much more about LotF's many, many flaws, not that interested in a long debate (everyone has the right to their own opinion and all). I just wanted to say I agree with many/most of the thread starter's complaints, and advise you not to bother reading any more novels (aside from maybe Knight Errant, which has nothing to do with the mostly ruined post-RotJ era), and instead if you still have any interest in Star Wars, go read the comics from Dark Horse instead, they're much, much better (aside from some series not lasting as long as we had hoped, unfortunately). Although these kinds of comments have been common since 2008 too. That thread that was linked to earlier is also probably more entertaining than LotF was itself, once you reach the end.

 

El Kabong, if it makes you feel better, I largely disregard anything (save for Legacy) as canon after ROTJ.

I don't care for the large majority of post ROTJ books, so as far as I know, Luke rebuilds the order and there is peace until Legacy.

 

I liked the series but hated Caedus
Its what they wanted to have happen, I don't think your supposed to like a villain but then again I skipped most of the NJO era anyway.

 

NJO and LOTF have many things in common despite not sharing many authors.

Primarily, these are:

Storylines that are full of massive plot holes when you stop to think about it.

Characters who have complete personality shifts every 100 pages.

The assumption that "dark" means killing off characters left and right with inept execution, compounded by the prevalence of sadistic violence/gore.

Jacen Solo is arrogant to the point of stupidity, and is incapable of learning from his own mistakes or the mistakes of others.

However, I find LOTF to be worse because of what it does to the primary female characters. The entire series is basically a walking example for Women in Refrigerators.

-Jaina is portrayed as immature, vapid, and concerned mostly with leading on love interests she has no real caring for. Then she gets called "soft" by Mandalorians, despite the fact that she's been fighting in wars since she was 14-years-old- and the text is written so that readers are led to accept that insult as fact.

-Tahiri's recovery from psychological torture is retconned to make way for a disturbing facsimile of a dominatrix, culminating in the implied sexual attraction toward and abuse of a 14-year-old boy.

-Mara, one of the most iconic and beloved characters in all of the EU, is killed off for no other reason than to force angst for three male characters.



Those are the series greatest travesties, but I'm still irritated by the fact that Jacen is an awful, awful villain. He's an idiot who gets by solely on brute strength and faux philosophy that a teenager could- and does!- destroy. At no point in the entire series is ever a threat to Luke. Considering that his entire downfall was started because of a vision of himself killing Luke, this is a massive logical disconnect. That would be an acceptable way to show Jacen's growing disconnection with reality, but the fact that it's never pointed out at all just means it's an example of hilariously bad writing.

Also, the civil war situation itself comes out of nowhere and then goes nowhere. Would there even be the resources to fight a galactic war if everything was as devastated by the Vong as we are told? You're telling me that after saving the galaxy for a third separate time, Luke wouldn't have had the influence to keep the peace? Or Leia, with all that plus being a former Chief of State?


NJO infuriated me for many reasons (SBS is still the worst book I have ever read), but LOTF is what made me put an embargo anything Del Rey publishes for Star Wars.