If Vergere is a Sith, how could she have become a Force-Ghost?

Lumiya claims, and Jacen believes, she was really a Sith candidate, that split from Palpatine and went off with the Yuuzhan Vong.

Yet after her fighter crashes on Ebaq 9 in Destiny's Way, she appears as a Force-Ghost to Jacen. Though we know from Qui-gon that a Sith can never achieve immortality; that true compassion, selflessness, and love are needed. And in Sacrifice, Jacen says he sometimes hears her voice inside his head still.

So one, or both, of the following must be true:

1. Vergere wasn't a Sith at the time she died. (She was never a Sith, or had redeemed herself)
OR
2. Vergere didn't die. (The Force-Ghost is just a force-projection of herself from a distance, like Lumiya's phantoms)


Alive or Dead, Dark or Light, she still has a role to play in Legacy of the Force.


[image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/6b/Vergere_side.jpg]




"The mystery of Vergere will be revealed."

 

Sith CAN return from the dead, as Palpy did, but the process is very painful and they are not at peace with the Force like the Jedi.

 

you are aware Verege was actually just a Force phantom projected by Lumiya??

j/k... but it will be interesting to see what other revelations Jacen has about her...

 

Sith can only return from the dead by binding themselves to the place where they died. I doubt this happened to Vergere.

 

No, because Palpatine was able to get from Endor to Byss while he was dead.

 

But Krayt speaks to past Sith Lords in the Legacy comic, and they were Force ghosts. Am I missing something here?

 

Those were Holocrons actually.

Sith Spirits are not the same as Force Ghost they are basically just a pale immitation.

They can be destroyed and they are linked to some object or person.

Basically a sith spirit is a cheat for darksiders who want to avoid darkside hell while trying to find a way to live again.

 

They weren't Force-Ghosts, they were holocrons. Different.

 

Powerful Sith can return as Force Ghosts. Exar Kun, Ajuntal Pall, Freedon Nadd, just to name a few, can remain in that state for decades, centuries...even millennia.

 

Related question: If Vergere's philosophy of the Force is Sith-like, then did Ganner fall to the Dark Side during his last stand?

I hate this "Vergere was a Sith" retcon. It cheapens Ganners death and Jacens victory over Onimi.
It kind of taints Anniken Solos death as well IMHO.

 

There's no way to say.

Ganner in so far as I can recall (I'm one of the few who don't like Traitor only read it the once )know wasn't using hate, fear and anger to power his dance so I don't think it was necessarily dark side.

I don't see it tainting Anakin's death at all.

And I personally have allways looked at Jacen's victory over Onimi with suspecion it allways seemed a bit darkside to use the force to kill.

 

Ganner died using the Dark Side. That doesn't mean he was consumed by it.

Everyone knows that.

Jacen Solo killed Omni using the Force, which is a Big No No anyway even though he channeled it's awesome power strongly and independently of Vegere.

Vegere murdered Anakin to get Jacen, we knew this.

 

I've been a pretty staunch supporter of "Lumiya lied through her teeth..er....does she have teeth?" as far as Vergere goes. Recently I've been skimming some NJO titles and was going through Dark Journey. The Art of making oneself small struck me a little bit. Thinking back to the RoTS novel and this particular section...

"The Temple was still the greatest nexus of force energy on the planet, perhaps the galaxy, and it was unquestionably the best place for intense, focused, meditation. He had much he needed the force to teach him and a very short time to learn it. He would start by thinking inward, thinking about HIMSELF."

A continuation of Anakin's transition to Darth Vader involved him going against the standard tide of meditating while reaching out to the force, to everything around, to the entire galaxy. He was digging deeper and deeper to focus on himself. By way of comparison, Vergere and her "Creating medicine to be distributed through tears and other ways to make onself small" certainly had to focus inward....seemingly farther inward than wavering Anakin Skywalker did all those years prior.

Qui-Gonian philosophy tells the Jedi that self needs to be completely removed from the equation to (And this may be a stretch of sorts) TRULY be following what a Jedi should be. If Vergere spent all of that time wrapped up in self...so wrapped up that she didn't just see inside but saw every little scrap that made up her self....it seems to be an utterly divergent philosophy from the "Removal of self".

This could possibly be explained by the old Potentium theory, but that simply takes away the dark side and light side, it doesn't take away the fact that selfish people are likely to do dark things while selfless people are likely to do good things.

Anyone else every consider this?

 

I actually believe was the new Darth Traya. Notice how Kreia from KOTOR II and Vergere have identical beliefs. Traya is unique because she's neither light or dark. She's gray and crafty. Plus Kreia, who was one of the Darth Trayas, said that there always has to be a Darth Traya. So my theory is Vergere was the new Darth Traya.

 

Although Qui-Gon says that Sith cannot appear as force ghosts, looking back through everything there are a lot of Sith who have appeared. Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Ajunta Pall, Qordis, Kaan and so on...

I think the difference is that the Sith aren't at peace and usually have channeled their essence into something tangible in the material plane, like Exar Kun and the Yavin IV temples. So perhaps it is a totally different type of power or maybe there is a retcon or something coming seeing as a lot of those who became force ghosts were written before the PT was done. I think I remember some of the writers saying that because the only force users we see die are Obi-Wan/Yoda/Vader and they all become force ghosts when force users died in their stories they simply assumed all force users became ghosts. Obi-Wan/Yoda were Jedi, Vader was a Sith, though maybe he wasn't when he died, but either way he couldn't have learnt that skill in those few minutes if it was a light side only force skill. So in that light I can see why they would have made those assumptions at the time.

 

First, what was it exactly that Qui-Gonn said and second, why should we take what he said as absolute truth? Did Qui-Gonn somehow become infallible the moment he died or what?

 

In the Revenge of the Sith novelization--near the end--Qui-Gon's spirit speaks to Yoda and says that eternal life can only come through the release of one's self and compassion. He also says that the Sith can never achieve it, yet it's their ultimate goal.

Others have said it, but it could only mean that the Sith can't achieve the immortality that a Jedi can, who seem to have pretty free reign over where their spirits can travel. Vergere's spirit, however, seems to be stuck on a dead rock in the middle of nowhere... Hope a tourist happens to be Force sensitive when the inevitable war memorial is built there.

 

Maybe we shouldn't take what he says as absolute truth, but he has discovered himself how to return from the Netherworld of the force, so it would seem logical that he knows what he's talking about.

 

Sith cannot become immortal Force ghosts using the same technique that Qui-Gon used. The Sith we have seen that have managed to cheat death have mostly been limited in some way.
Limited to one place or one object is the most common. (Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Ajunta Pall...)
Not really dying by keeping the body alive with Sith alchemy is another. (Dhakta Graush, Darth Andeddu, Simus)
Having the soul jump from body to body is how Palpatine managed it.
Freedon Nadd seems to have used some kind of combination of the above, anchoring his spirit to different Force-strong individuals.
The ghosts of Kaan and Quordis is a bit of a problem. We'll see if the next Bane novel deals with them.


/Charlii

 

The suggestion has been made that perhaps a Sith can only anchor themselves to people or places when they become a spirit and that Jedi "ghosts" are free to roam as they will. If this is so, why did Obi-Wan tell Luke in HTTE that he would no longer be able to communicate with him because the distance between them had become too great. At that point he could only appear in a dream as well, so apparently their connection had been diminishing for some time. I know that the easy answer would be because that book was written before the prequels, but what would the in-universe answer be?

 

By binding himself to Jeng Droga's body. Though I'm not sure how close Droga was to Palpatine when he exploded in the shaft.

 

Luke didn't need him any more.

 

Droga was actually at least several light years away from Palpatine, since he was in charge of Palpatine's yacht in another system.

 

Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me regarding Sith / Force ghosts.

 

We are at the mid-point of the Legacy of the Force book series now, and if one of the goals was to put to rest the mysteries surrounding Vergere then I'm afraid they have so far failed.

All I see is more questions and more complications, it's as far from the black and white answer I believe fans were asking for.