I'm probably missing something here, but midichlorians make no sense...

...even in the Star Wars universe.

People in The Phantom Menace say:

Midis enable people to "speak" to the Force

They live inside cells.

"Without them, life could not exist."

Anakin's count is "over 20,000," "off the scale" and "higher than Master Yoda's."

What we see in The Phantom Menace:

Qui-Gon apparently takes a sample of Anakin's blood to test for midis.

There's a "midichlorian count" scale, supposedly numbering every single midi within a being's body.

George Lucas says/what we can assume he's saying:

Anakin diminished in Force power (or "potential") when he was severely burned.

Once midis are gone, they're gone forever.

Issues I have (besides emotional/personal issues):

1. There's no way Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan could have measured Anakin's total "midichlorian count" from a blood sample. Usually when doctors say "X count" it's a proportional measurement (this is what I assumed when I first viewed the movie); of course they could estimate the total by taking into account Anakin's body size, but I didn't see any indication that Qui-Gon took such measurements and the estimates could be way off anyway.

2. If "life could not exist without them," why do midichlorians not exist within every cell? There are way more than 20,000 cells in a human body. And how could midis have continued to exist if they don't reproduce normally with cells? I suppose Qui-Gon's line could easily have been a metaphor or something, but I can't quite figure out what it would mean (help me ); so I'm taking it literally right now.

3. If once a person cannot regain midis he loses, why did Qui-Gon effectively reduce Anakin's Force power by taking a blood sample? Supposedly there were Midis in that sample, otherwise he wouldn't be able to get a "count." Thanks for nothing, Master Jinn!

My wild conclusion: It would be hell of a lot easier for a "midi count" to be proportional to a certain measurement (# of cells, unit of weight). Plus, Luke would have been diminished in Force power after ESB because of what Lucas says to some reporter in Vanity Fair-- who's ready to accept that? Can we really take Lucas seriously? Hell, even he doesn't take his own words seriously, since he changes his mind all the damn time and misapplies terms for his own creations ("Greedos" means "Rodians" in Lucas-speak). Thoughts? I fully expect Blithe, dp4m and LijoT to blast me with "Lucas' words are gospel blah blah blah..." Can anyone help poor, stupid me figure this out? Perhaps a Saxton-esque "researcher" who has a PhD in biology?

Note: Yes, I know this has little to do with any specific EU source, but I like EU-oriented discussions more than "EU isnt cannon looser!!1" every five posts.

 

Obviously, this was Qui-Gon's little gag. To avoid difficulty with "The Talk", rather than use the traditional "birds and bees" approach, Qui-Gon explained the...uhhh...yeah...with the concept of midichlorians. It wasn't until after Qui-Gon's death that Obi-Wan asked Yoda about the midichlorians and learned that Qui-Gon had just made them up. Yoda, however, thought the joke was funny enough that he began tricking his Younglings with it, going so far as to offer up some crappy midichlorian-related explanation as to why everybody on Vjun went crazy when he went there with orphaned Padawans Whie Malreaux and Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy to meet with Count Dooku. Yoda didn't have time to try to pass the joke on to Luke during the Rebel pilot's training on Dagobah during the Galactic Civil War, and with his death, the long-running joke about the Jedi midichlorians vanished from the galaxy forever.

 

Midicloreines are in every Cell.

Anakin's midicloreine count didn't diminish, he was left a horribly burned shell of a man with cybernetics interfering with his body's natural life processes.

There, fine, your question answered?

 

Charlemagne19 posted on 7/22/05 8:43pm

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Midicloreines are in every Cell.[hr][/blockquote]

Then why are the "counts" significantly smaller than the number of cells?

 

I think one of the key points that you're missing is that Qui-gon measured Anakin's midi-chlorian concentration. You can measure concentration (eg. the concentration of chlorine in a pool) by taking only a small sample. So Anakin has over 20 000 midis in each cell. That's also why the size of one's body doesn't matter. Yoda may have a small body, but (aside from Anakin) he probably has more midis in each cell than any other jedi.

 

I always figured the count was per cell.

Jeez, guys, don't post so fast.

 

I always thought it was 20000 midis per cell. Otherwise Shaquille O'Neal would be a stronger Jedi than Danny DeVito.

 

Yeah, that's what I was saying in my post above. The jedi measure them in terms of concentration, not absolute total, which would be impossible to measure from a simple blood sample. It's just like how doctors in our world measure one's white blood cell count.

 

I prefer my explanation.

 

sounds good to me... this was also discussed in the TOS Forums under Force Philosopy 2.0, but all of it is still fan assumptions/hypothesis.

As for Vader's decline in power, the cybernetics attachments might be a good explanation but how can that explain Brand and the Sith Head Guy.

 

Yeah, the one thing that I don't get is why Vader got weaker. If it's the concentration of midi-chlorians that matters (like all the evidence suggests) then loosing part(s) of one's body shouldn't affect the concentration anymore than draining part of a pool changes chlorine concentration...

Unless, maybe incorporation non-living components into one's body weakens one's connection to the Force?

 

I think the introduction of cybernetics disrupted the way the midis communicated with each other and Ani, therefore disrupting his ability with the Force. As for why Luke wasn't affected by the loss of a hand, the out of universe explanation is simply there were no such thing as midis at the time of ESB and ROTJ. The GFFA explanation is probably more akin to "He did lose some of his power, but it was inconsequential compared to what Ani lost."

My question is, if midis are only in living things, how can the Force effect non-living things like the rocks Luke lifts in ESB? Is it lichens on the rocks producing midis as well?

 

Midis allow the Jedi to communicate with the Force. But the Force itself is everywhere, and the Jedi can manipulate that energy.

 

Well it could be a case of the Jedi not so much as moving the rock itself, but maybe the air, particles around the actual rock. Better the concentration and control the easier it is to manupliate them(makethem stronger to life something else). I figured that was how they affected non-livigin objects. Not so much the object itself but the things around it.

Which is why I had a problem with the Vong. So what if they couldn't be found in the force. You could still life other things to affect them. Can't push the Vong itself, try pushing it's armor or weapons or air around it.

 

Think of the midis as a conduit to the Force. They are only in living things, but the Force itself is everywhere.

 

I just think Qui-Gon was senile and Obi-Wan was humoring him when he "checked" the blood count. He told Qui-Gon that Anakin had a high "midi" count so Obi-Wan had someone who could do his laundry for him.

 

Me too. Heres a cookiee.

 

Unfortunately, no. This doesn't work. If it did, Jedi would never be able to move anything in vacuum, because there's no air there. Besides, air is no more alive than a rock, so why would a Jedi be able to move that?

And as far as the Vong go, well, it seems that all their stuff (including all species linked to them in any way, from vonduun crabs to amphistaffs) have a similar degree of resistance (not immunity) to Force movement. That also changes at points in the NJO (one of the major continuity gaffes, unfortunately): early on Jacen thinks "I can't move him," about the time he's being drowned, but later in TUF (minor spoilers) Luke says he could pick up Harrar and move him easily, but couldn't sense him. I think I may have to go officially retcon that now, thanks to McEwok's thread...

As far as midichlorians themselves are concerned, it's always been assumed that that's a "per-cell" count. However, this leaves us with few viable options for explaining Vader's less Force-ish-ness. My explanataion at this point is that Vader's cybernetics actually disrupted his internal biology (as did his burning) and thus that they also disrupted the communication between his body and his brain. This in turn limits his cognitive abilities with regards to manipulation of the Force, as his line of communication to it was damaged by the trauma and the cybernetics.

By this argument, we can see that Luke's abilities would have been dimished either not at all or so slightly as to be irrelevant: his injuries in no way caused the extensive internal and structural traumas that Vader's did. Moreover, whereas Vader was subjected to highly invasive (and likely interruptive) cybernetics, Luke had only a rather noninvasive cybernetic attachment.

Course, this only raises another question: how invasive was Luke's replacement? After all, his hand was cut off at the wrist, as is clearly indicated in ESB if you watch closely. Yet, in the medical facility, and later in the beginning of RotJ, we see that the artificial hand extends well up into his forearms... Argue away, sentients.

Because, despite all that carefully thought out work, I think I'm just going to go with Kudzu...

 

As long as his cells are still alive, why would cybernetic organs/limbs matter to Vader? I don't see how they would disrupt "communication" between his brain and the rest of his body, because he seems to be fine in that regard.

And yes, I like Kudzu's explanation.

 

The Jedi Knighthood has a great deal to do with Asian mysticism and the usage of the Force is related to the concept of "chi." In this respect the cells are what allows the Jedi to open himself up to the Force but the cells communicate with one another and the perfection of the body allows a free and uninhibited communication with the entirety of the midicloreines in the self....because they are you.

The great irony is that a parapalegic with amuptated arms and Yoda are still "complete." The perfection of the body is not disrupted by wounds. However, cybernetics feed essentially false information to the brain and body. The 'machine' aspects that help keep vader alive have 'blank' spots in the force throughout his aura.

There's also the fact that Vader must devote a portion of his rage to keeping himself alive as well along with the constant agony his in. Both of these contribute to why he's weaker than he could be.

 

I never had Vader as any weaker in the Force, but just like a cripple. He couldn't compete with the Emperor because he was basically a quadraplegic.

 

Just forget the midi nonsense--remember Kenobi and Yoda lied to Luke every chance they could get until Luke was able to expose their lies and call them on them. Who says Qui-Gon wasn't feeding his padawan a tall-tale?