Imperial Knights and the Force - Where do they stand?

My impression (having just gotten into the series) is that they have identical powers to the Jedi, basically, but because they're usually more focused on martial abilities because they're basically sworn to protect (bodyguard) the Emperor, their abilities in other areas (healing, mind reading) tends to be weaker. Not because they can't use it or aren't taught, but because it's not as useful to them so they don't study as hard. Just like more martially minded Jedi, except the Imperial Knights aren't so free to follow their own path with regards to training. Though I imagine there are Imperial Knights with great latent healing or mind reading talents that specialise slightly more in that area.

As far as grey Jedi, it's not quite consistant with the Old Republic definition because in those instances, they followed their own moral code and conscience; some of them even claiming to simply adhere to the will of the Force. In the case of the Imperial Knights, following the Emperor means being willing to abandon both their own conscience and the will of the Force, for the whim of the Emperor. And that could potentially be dangerous. They will only be as light or dark as their patron.

That said, in their current incarnation, I think that they are largely light side. They seem to follow a light side morality, seek to control their emotions and not act out of violence or fear.

I guess what I'm saying is, while they're human and susceptible to dark-side flashes just like Jedi, I don't think they're potentium types who'll use any aspect of the Force to protect the Emperor and get their jobs done. They're light-side users defending an order they completely believe in. They're knights errant - they're not The Operative from Serenity.

The interesting situation will be (and we haven't seen that much of this issue yet) when their light-side, moral attitude towards their work comes into conflict with their orders. Whatever he is, Roan Fel isn't evil and doesn't generally command his Knights to act in a dark side fashion. The Imperial Knights have the potential to be dangerous, the same way the Jedi would if they swore to follow the will of the Republic above and beyond the call of the Force. But they haven't become dangerous or dark yet.

 

Well, Antares Draco did use the force on Darth Talon with success. I believe it was in the last issue of the broken arc. Talon is jumping towards the Mynock and Antares force pushes her and pins her to the ground. They obviously can use telekinesis effectively. But, Antares is the best Imperial Knight there is.

 

Why do they follow the Emperor, exactly? What makes the Emperor so important - and presumable infallible to them - that they follow him instead of following the Force or serving the Empire?

They are a mirror image of the New Sith Order. In both all obey one person with blind loyalty. Krayt has his vision that his Order is trying to achieve, he is the most powerful of them, has led the Order already before any of the current members were born and the members seem to have mostly been indoctrinated from birth. So this explains the position Krayt has. But how Roan Fel - and presumably his predecessors - have achieved the same kind of position in their own Order?

If the Fels are descended from Jaina, then could they perhaps claim to be kind of demigods? Blood of the Chosen One? That as descendants of Anakin Skywalker they to some extent would be if not the Force itself in human form, then at least as close to it as possible? That for the Imperial Knights following the Emperor would really mean following the Force?

 

I completely agree.

Very interesting. I like the idea in principle, though I do have trouble imagining Jaina condoning that kind of behaviour. Then again, perhaps this is a development that occured after her death. Or a situation such as the NJO where she had to "play the Goddess" and it got a little out of hand. Hmm...

 

If Jaina would be the one who would defeat Jacen in LotF, saving the galaxy from the Sith, that would surely enhance her reputation. Sword of the Jedi, descendant of the Chosen One and perhaps seen as the Chosen One of her generation? Jagged already hinted towards that in Exile...

 

Oh, I wouldn't say that the Imperial Knights could be accused of blind loyalty by any stretch of the imagination.

 

That is the ideal, or we've assumed that it is. The reality seems a mite different.

 

The Emperor that they follow was deposed. He isn't dead. The usurper (in the eyes of the IK) is a Sith. We now know that Fel kept the IK out of battle once the Sith emrged (issue 8). If Veed had seized the throne, would it have been different? If the Moffs decided that Fel was unfit and replaced him, would the IK have served the thone or Fel? To me, so long as Fel still lives and the Usurper is a Sith, it shouldn't be a surprise that the IK follow Fel. OTOH -- if Krayt and the Sith are defeated, if Fel were to re-take his throne and decide not to withdraw to the former boundaries of he Empire but to keep the new ones, would the IK continue to serve? If the Emperor (say, Fel) went to the Dark Side, would they serve him? Or kill him? All interesting speculations.

-- John

 

Well, they aren't knights-errant... they've got a master that they follow. They are knights in a very traditional sense. Knights-errant are knights who are adventurers without a king or lord to answer to, either that or they are mercenaries.

Cade is a knight-errant, and so are all the remaining Jedi Knights.

 

John-

You bring up the excellent point of what might occur in the aftermath of Krayt's defeat. Fel has two options.

1. Command the Empire in its new state, as the only galactic power. (As you said above)

2. Withdraw to the boundaries of the Empire before the Sith-Imperial War, returning the rest of the galaxy to Alliance control.

Each option presents a interesting outcome. The first could create yet another war, or ensure final defeat of the remnants of the Alliance.

The second, IMO, is the most interesting. If Fel were to reclaim his throne and return to his old borders, allowing the GA to reclaim its former status, he could very well go down into galactic history as one of the greatest leaders of the past millenia.

How interesting would it be to see a Imperial Emperor peacefully return to his former holdings of the old Imperial Remnant and have the GA peacefully return to power?

Fel would be held in the same kind of esteme that many galactic citizens hold for Mon Mothma and other Rebellion founders.

God, the potential for this series is incredible!

--Adm. Nick

 

Gah, yes, you are right. This is what happens when I type posts and think while tired.

What I was trying to get at (and what the phrase knight-errant conjures up in my mind, though I used it incorrectly in this context) is that they see themselves as samurai rather than ninjas. But, you are correct, they aren't ronin.

Sorry for the japanese terminology but it's the closest thing I can think of that fits. Where samurai are knights in service to a lord but are expected to behave with honour, ninjas have no honour and are bound only to ensure their lord's will is done no matter the cost, and ronin are masterless samurai. I'm pretty sure I have that right...

What would happen if their lord started asking them to behave like ninjas instead of samurai, now that could be interesting...

 

You are forgiven.

 

I don't know about the IKs being inherently weaker at healing. These particular IKs were not as good as these particular Jedi in your example. However, Cilghal being able to pwn Kyp in the healing department doesn't mean that Kyp isn't good at healing, or that he's inherently weak in that area.

I'd be cautious of drawing sweeping assessments of IK capability and relation with the Force off of a few lines.

 

Some of the Jedi specialize on different areas, like healers etc. Do the Imperial Knights do the same? Or are they all the same?

Perhaps the Imperial Knights are really not equivalent to Jedi Knights? Perhaps they are more like Jedi Brutes?

 

I think the key to understanding the status of the Imperial Knights lies in understanding the Jedi POV; now by this I don't mean that the Jedi Order's definition of them as "Grey Jedi" is an objective truth - what it means is that they don't follow the Jedi Order's definition of the Will of the Force: Within the Jedi order.... it is thought they do not truly follow the way of the Force.

I think this gets to the crux of it, and it seems reasonably clear-cut: the Imperial Knights don't believe in the mechanism that the Jedi Order uses to determine how they should serve the Force - or, in more mundane terms, the mechanisms they use to determine policy.

That probably means that the Imperial Knights don't recognize the authority of the Jedi Council, or whatever the leadership of the Jedi Order has evolved into to by the time of the schism and the comics....

On the other hand, the Jedi as an Order may be reluctant to deny them the legitimacy that they can probably claim through representing a continuity of Master-to-Apprentice training from Luke Skywalker's Order and/or the pre-purge Jedi.

I'd imagine that when the split happened - and after it - there would be a three-way tension between hard-liners who wanted to declare the Imperial Knights as schismatics and heretics, moderates who would be reluctant to formalise the schism, and politically-minded sorts who see the articulation of dogma as less important than maintaining the integrity and agency of the order within the practical political situation, whaever that may be.

But, at the same time, what the Jedi think of the situation is only half the issue: there's also the Imperial Knights' own POV to think of.

They seem to place a heavy stress on the personal Master/Apprentice bond, and they certainly believe in personal loyalty to the Emperor - though on the other hand, Antares is very flexible when it comes to creatively interpreting simple instructions from Roan Fel. It's quite telling that Antares, not Fel, is actually the head of the Order. Some of them, like Sigel Dare, seem to have very little in the way of sympathy for the Alliance/Ossus Jedi (or at least what's left of them).

Politically, they're obviously tied to the Empire, but I suspect that they're generally... undogmatic. Whereas the Jedi Order is actively concerned with the Will of the Force, their organization is to do with practicality, honour, and the chain of command. This doesn't mean that they don't believe in doing what's right - I'm sure they do - but they may percieve this in a rather more complicated, less clearly-defined way. Some of them, I suspect, may even be conscious of their status as Jedi who happen to be in an awkward relationship with the authority of the Order....

Or maybe that's just some of my real-life POVs coming through?

Anyway, the details of the question - and the politics - are probably quite complicated, and quite a lot of fun.

For instance, as of the Legacy series timeframe, the readiness of the survivors of the Jedi Order to believe that Roan Fel was complicit in the Massacre at Ossus could be to do with earlier antagonism between the formal decision-making structures of the Order and the IK leadership - ie, Roan Fel himself. They might percieve Fel as claiming to be a rival source of legitimate authority as a leader of Jedi Knights, and as a result, they might read the Massacre at Ossus as his way of settling a disagreement over the question of who leads the Jedi.

But that's an aside - in general terms, I think this difference in chain-of-command and matters of conscience gets to a lot of it.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I wouldn't want to see the IK's fall to the Sith as much as I think it would be interesting if Veed had taken the throne and some decided that they were loyal to the throne while others remained loyal to Roan Fel. An IK that joins the Sith is pretty much....A Sith! Right now, I see the Jedi as being your traditional "Total Good Guys doing everything in the name of Altruism", the Sith as "Total Evil guys, doing everything in the name of power", and Roan Fel's IK's as "Preserving Order and staying mostly on the light side." A group that followed someone like Veed may be placed in situations where they would do quasi evil things at times, quasi good things at other times.....but generally being more aggressive and leaning towards the Dark Side of the spectrum. I like the balance that would present. Of course, it wouldn't work in the current story arc but could work if the Sith got beaten off the throne but still existed, and Fel was kept away from the throne.

Carnage

 

I don't understand why this question continues to arise. The source material is clear: the IK are Jedi. Fully trained. Fully capable. The way Krayt is able to tell that the man he kills in issue #1 is not the Emperor is because he knows the Emperor is a Jedi Master, and would have been harder to fight. Krayt, who cuts through four IKs Palpatine's-Office style, expected a real fight from Fel.

The IKs are as powerful as Jedi. The IKs are lightsiders, but the Jedi Council keeps a watch on them. As they are considered Gray Jedi, it's possible they are not a complete and utter split from the Order prior to the war. Antares uses a lot of motion to Force push Talon, not because it's hard from him to do, but because he's a hot head, and he's pissed when he pushes her.