Imperial Knights v.s. Jedi Knights

In Legacy #0, it says the IK are fully trained jedi (i take that to mean that they are not actually jedi but have reached a level equal with a jedi knight).
Now in many cases the same comic shows the IK as being substansially(sp?) weaker than the jedi
(i.e. Kryatt killed 4 of them in moments, Sia's bodygaurd got wooped by Talon and was too weak to stop her from probbing her mind, ETC.)
while Cade put up a good fight against Kryatt for awhile, Shado fought Talon, Cade wooped Talon with a few weeks at the sith temple, the jedi on Ossus killed LOADS of sith each, ETC.)
Now i know there are some exceptions like Fel, but for the most part the jedi seem much better at EVERYTHING (except flying) than the IK.

Thoughts?

No vs. threads.

 

I think a lot of its circumstantial.

Shado and Wolf are both Masters and, based on the fact they survived where others didn't, I expect some of the better Jedi Masters at that. Cade is, well, Cade. He gets the Skywalker McGuffin excuse.

When we look at the IKs though... have that many been Masters? I gather most are simply Knights with only guys like Draco and Roan being Masters.

Entering personal fanon world though, I do like the idea what that Sith said was true about the IKs being mere "Forcelings" compared to the real Jedi, but rather than due to some Force based excuse I like the idea the number of IKs trained to Mastery is kept low to avoid them opposing the Emperor. They are, ultimately, Roan Fel's guardian knights, so I like the idea they are intentionally not all trained to Mastery.

 

Now i know there are some exceptions like Fel, but for the most part the jedi seem much better at EVERYTHING (except flying) than the IK.


There are plenty of fine Jedi pilots. Cade is no slouch, but we really haven't really seen any of the other Legacy Jedi fly anything, so that statement of yours might be inaccurate. I guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Anyways the Jedi would own most of the Imp Knights, in my opinion.

 

I'm not very impressed with the force users in Legacy as a whole and I'm actually glad about that.

Fel and his Knights aren't very impressive, Among the Jedi Kol and Shado have impressed me but Cade is coasting by on raw power, and Saizen is kind of an idiot walking around missing an arm.

Even the sith aren't that impressive Krayt, Nhil and Talon the sith we've see the most action out of have hardly shown themselves to be that great.

But as I said before I am glad about it. I like the idea that during the time frame of the Six movies and just beyond them were were seeing a period where exceptional force users were a lot more common and now that number has diminished again. I like that so far Legacy seems to be a diminished galaxy in terms of raw power. There aren't that many Palpatine Mace or Yoda level characters.

 

The Imperial Knights look about as bad-assed as Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin did in the Chancellor's Office. The Jedi Master's look formidable like Mace and Kenobi, but not like Gary-Stu's... only the HAT reigns supreme amongst the Jedi.

Krayt has been done well to this point, for all his knowledge and power... he's still dying. What I like most about Krayt is that he embodies what Sidious believed about a Sith Lord's true power... that it resides in their will.

 

I'm just saying that the IK's seem to be good at flying as compared to lightsaber and force combat which is quite mediocre(at best)

 

Maybe it's as simple as most IK just aren't as force-sensitive as 99.9% of Jedi

 

that's cool with me.

 

I don't really see a reason for that to be the case though. Its pot luck who gets recruited by who first. It feels contrived that all the better Force-sensitives just conveniently happen to get recruited by the Jedi and that the IKs only ever come across the weaklings.

 

Well just think about it logically, all the imperial knights we've seen must have been born in the empire since they are all much older than 7. And since the empire is much smaller than the GA was, the jedi had a much bigger area to get their future jedi from. Meaning the chances of finding not only a greater number of force-sensitives, but also more sensitive force-sensitives greatly favored the jedi. Also there were probably quite a few jedi families other than skywalker that had some serious force potential lineages in the order from the early NJO.

all speculation, of course

 

Recruitment may not enter into the equation. For all we know the IK's are a fairly recent IU development. It may be that serving Fel appealed more to rank and file Jedi. We do know that several Jedi joined their ranks after the Sith-Imperial war. Perhaps the existing Jedi masters felt a greater sense of obligation to maintain the Order proper.

 

There are a few jedi trainees that went to the IK's after the Jedi scattered to complete their training.

 

so did they feel the light side had lost and they might as well forget their obligation to the "will of the force" and join the empire displaced(which they had just been fighting for 3 years), swearing fealty to Fel? or did they just use the empire to finish their training and get to wear a cool uniform with fringe benefits? or was it that the "will of the force" would be to rid the galaxy of the sith no matter what organization did it and they figured Fel had a better chance?

 

I really have no idea on that, although the IKs do seem to be somewhat weaker.

But, they get props for basically being the Jedi as they were originally imagined to be in the early-70s drafts of ANH.

 

I think its all coincidence up to this point...

What battles have we seriously seen?

Mohrgan and his Knights vs Darth Krayt and posse:

This was up against the top Sith of the order! The Dark Lord himself, his right hand man (Wyyrlok), his Hand (Nihl) and the head of the assassins (Maladi) so hardly a fair measure up there we don't know what sort of level those particular knights were, only that Mohrgan was head of the IK's, and to be fair he was the last to go and outnumbered by the top four Sith of the time at that point. (Since I suspect he has Skywalker blood as well, I'm glad that its left open as to why he went down)

Elke vs Talon:

Again, the Dark Lord's personal hand here, one of the top Sith, and we don't really know how long that battle took either.... I got the impression it went to a while and eventually Ekle succumbed to Talon's superior skill, but still but up a hell of a fight.

Draco & Ganner vs Sith on Vendaxa:

Here we go, the IK's cut down lots of Sith during this battle. (Granted these are the two head IK's so they are supposed to be good!)

Fel vs Kruhl:

Fel owned Kruhl in my opinion during this fight. Of course I suspect it will eventually turn out that Fel is of Skywalker blood, so he should own Kruhl - a simple Sith assassin.

Sinde vs Azard:

Sinde held his own against Azard, whilst Force pushing a dozen Stormies away, fairly impressive, and still managed to escape the Imperials and join the Mon Cal resistance.

Draco & Ganner vs Cade & Shado

The Jedi won this fight, but that was due to Cade's powerful Force push - another example of Skywalker blood completely owning your average Force user... so no real comparison there between your IK's and Jedi.


Now for the Jedi battles:

Kol & Wolf vs LOTS of Sith.

Ok yes the Jedi slaughtered tonnes of Sith here before being brought down, but this is the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order we're talking about here, of Skywalker blood no less, plus his former apprentice... thats not really a realistic measurement to compare against there... add that to the fact that his Sazen got defeated by Nihl.

Shado & Wolf vs Sith on bridge.

They survived this battle but not all the Jedi did, so the Jedi aren't that much better matched against the Sith than the IK's so far.

Shado & Wolf vs Sith on Vendaxa

Firstly Talon actually almost defeats Shado and Wolf until Marasiah and Cade's inteference (an IK and a Skywalker... (possibly two Skywalkers )). Then later against the hordes of Sith the Jedi perform just as well as the IK's.

Cade vs various Sith in the Temple

Ok here Cade really wipes the floor when he defeats both Talon and Nihl in the end and holds his own against Krayt, but as Krayt said, its only the blood of Vader flowing through his veins that allows that.

Nat vs Azlyn.

A Jedi vs IK that I almost forgot... but again we have an experience Skywalker Jedi Master versus a fairly new Imperial Knight.... not a fair comparison.



My point is there really isn't any fair comparison to make between the IK's and the Jedi skill levels at this point. Until we see a group of average IK's go up against a group of average Jedi we're not likely to see.... it could be interesting though if this "assassination squad" of Cade's is formed by Jedi and IK's and we could possibly see similar ranked Knights going up against the Sith forces, and see who comes out better.

The problem is though is it all depends who each individual faces.

There are really strong and relatively weak individuals in all three orders:

Strong: (Sith) Darth Krayt, Darth Wyyrlok, Darth Talon, Darth Nihl (Jedi) Cade, Nat, Wolf and Sazen (Imperial Knights) Roan Fel, Draco, Ganner, Marasiah
Average: (Sith) Any other red skinned guy (Jedi) The other Jedi from the Hidden Temple (IK) Dare, Sinde, Azlyn


Personally I would imagine the Sith and Jedi are stronger than the IK's on average, but certain IK's could definately whoop certain Sith. Roan Fel for example....

 

It's the uniform. Imperial Knights have standardised equipment and armour. Jedi do not.

Lesser individuality = higher probability of mookdom.

 

Azlyn is one of the Jedi I was talking about that finished her training with the Imp Knights. I assume she did swear fealty of sorts with Fel, but I haven't really read the last few issues, so I don't really know her story all that well.

 

It's all summed up right here,...

FROM LEGACY: #22 THE WRATH OF THE DRAGON, P.G. 18


SITH AZARD BATTLING IMP. KNIGHT TREIS

(Within in the first clash of the two lightsabers)
AZARDto TREIS) Jedi! No--one of Fel's forcelings. Pity. I 'd hoped for a match.

(Continues fighting)

TREIS: (Force pushes 4 stormtroopers away, yea i counted)
AZARD: Impressive-- for one of your kind.
TREIS: Rudimentary. You should get out more. Meet more of my kind.
AZARD: You cannot defeat me. We both know it.

Now one could say that the second quotes undermine the first by saying that AZARD had limited ingagements with IKs and was simply basing it on an exeption rather than a rule. unlikely, seeing as no one would defeat one jedi and then expect them all to be that easy. or was it just some good ol' lightsaber combat trash talking.possible, but maybe not. The fact that AZARD notices the difference within moments of the battle starting suggests he actually realized a difference in the force or just the fight.
And another thought, the IKs seem much more focused on the combat aspects of the force (naturally) but seem quite pethetic on almost ALL the other ones. one's that could prove very helpful in their duties to the emperor, especially after being displaced. Even IK DARE only "believed" TREIS to be alive rather than being able to find his presence in the force. Granted, this could just be the right moment for the IKs to show the full scope of their abilities hasn't come.

 

Or it could be the rather distinctive 'saber Sinde carries...

 

I'm not really that concerned with who is stronger, though would Marasiah not be much stronger in the force if she was really Skywalkers decendant? I mean really Cade stopped training for how many years while Marasiah has likely been training since birth?

Also the thought that pops into my head is.....Since the Sith have taken rule over the galaxy who has done more for the galaxy? Who is out on the frontlines of the conflict? The Imperial Knights is the answer. The Jedi seem to be doing very little except hiding, basicly waiting for Cade to decide to come around and save them.

The Imperial Knights are taking the battle to the Sith, while the Jedi seemed concerned only with Hidden Temples and convincing Cade to join their side. The Imperial Knights are activly helping the Mon Cal's, and activly looking for a way to remove Krayt from power.

Roan Fel is standing in direct opposition of Krayt, while there is no evidence that the Jedi have so much as contacted the Alliance Remnant, never mind considering the Imperial Knights.

For me the hero's of Legacy are the Imperial Knights along side the Alliance Remnant. The Jedi are shattered and cowardly, and Cade is far too much of a wild card to depend upon. I'm also not yet convinced that "The Hat" is even on the "good" side of the conflict. A Sith in hiding he may well be .

 

FEAR THE supream power of the hat!!!!

 

I thought one telling moment was when Sia Fel was dying on the Mynock.

"I'm sorry Antares... the Jedi are skilled... more than we....but we're losing her." - Ganner Krieg

I get the impression that the IK's do not delve too deeply into too many force powers and focus more on combat/combated related power and stealthy/mind tricky powers. That would make more sense in their role of "Elite Guard."

I have my own theory on why the Jedi seem to be a little stronger overall. The Jedi and Sith are pretty much on the far extremes of the force user "Spectrum". The IK's are moderates compared to the Serene, do good, follow the force mentality of the Jedi or the "Use your rage and hatred to make yourself powerful philosophy of the Sith. Perhaps being moderate puts too many restraints on you from both sides, preventing you from reaching your full potential.

 

I wonder too if Treis Sinde and Roan Fel, being older and more experienced are a bit stronger than the younger IK's. Draco and Ganner seem really young, though Draco has been reffered to as a master.

 

I haven't read through much of Dune or Legacy yet, but so far it seems to me like the Imperial Knights were an attempt to bring the Sardaukar into Star Wars.

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say that.