In retrospect ... how good/bad is Anakin by the end of AotC?

I watched AotC very recently, and after two years, this was the most I've enjoyed the film since I saw it in the cinema. I don't know why, but something about it just clicked for me this time more than it ever has, and cemented it as my second-favourite SW movie (though I love them all dearly). And one of the reasons was, inexplicably, I found myself sympathising with Anakin a lot more than I ever had. Maybe it's just that I'm Anakin's age now, and I understand some of his emotions more than before (though thankfully don't always share them ... ), but I think it's more than that.

When AotC came out, a lot of the hype was all about Anakin beginning his turn to the Dark Side - how jealous and angry he was, how frustrated he is with the Jedi Code and with Obi-Wan, how he commits this terrible act against the Tuskens. Everyone was excited about seeing the beginning of Darth Vader, hearing the Imperial March again. So, like many people, I went into the movie focusing on how bad Anakin becomes, how far into the Dark Side he goes.

But when I watched it this time, I didn't think about the movie before I pressed "play", and I specifically decided to watch it without any Dark Side prejudices - the only predudices I had were that I'd watched TPM shortly before it. For some reason, I really found myself not only sympathising with Anakin a lot more than I ever had, but liking him a lot more than I ever had too. I liked him almost as much as I liked Luke. I think this is due to both Hayden and Jake Lloyd - Jake's performance in TPM is all purely good, so when we go into AotC, if we leave aside our prejudices of knowing this boy is going to be Darth Vader, for most of the movie, you can actually still see the goodness of Jake Lloyd in Hayden's performance. He's still a good, decent person.

Anakin has fatal flaws in the movie - he has arrogance and rashness, he's impatient and frustrated, he can't let go of things, he gets too emotional about things. He commits an absolutely terrible, evil act in the slaughter of the Tuskens. But in my opinion, by the end of the movie, he is still a good, decent, honest - even kind person. Is committing one bad act and making mistakes in a fit of naive youth enough to make someone a truly evil person? In my opinion, no. He's following his impulses, emotions and feelings, just as Luke does throughout the OT (though Luke has better judgement). Watching the movie the other night, it made me view Anakin very differently. I just wondered what other people thought about this. Do you see Anakin as good or bad by the end of the movie? How far do you think he has slipped? Does it seem inevitable by the end of AotC (forget all knowlegde of Episodes III-VI) that Anakin will fall into the Dark Side? Personally, by the end of AotC, if you have no knowledge of Darth Vader, I believe it seems that Anakin will still be OK in the end, and that he won't complete his journey to the Dark Side - he'll somehow be redeemed before he gets there.

Watching the movie again certainly made me realise even more so the power of that new ending of RotJ - last night I flicked to those final few scenes - the redemption, the unmasking, and Hayden's ghost - and it works so, so powerfully to see Anakin once again as the good, decent young man that he once was.

So, two and a half years on - what do people think about Anakin's morality overall in this episode?

 

Mmmm...hard to answer.
I like how GL discribes Anakin in AOTC. He's really ahead of himself, and arrogant, because he knows he is a powerful Jedi. It frustrates him that he can't move on. I don't think these traits are pretty normal for a guy his age.
In AOTC, this is all complicated by his love for Padme. He knows he is not allowed to love, she knows this as well, but he is willing to live a lie, or just throw his entire career away for her. And he missed his mother; another subject I don't think is easily talked about with his fellow-Jedi.
Anakin becomes conflicted in his feelings towards Padme, his mother and the Jedi. He wants to be a good Jedi, but he also wants to be with Padme and his mother. He feels he is being pulled into 3 different directions, though he knows that he CAN'T follow them all, which is IMO why he thinks he needs to be more powerful.

When Shmi died, I think Anakin just snapped. I think he was like "I give up! I can't do this!" and he allows his power to take over him.
His mother died, and he has given in to his anger. I think he feels that he is no longer a good Jedi. He only has Padme left.

I don't think Anakin is evil after AOTC. One thing that everybody seems to be overlooking is the fact that he regrets what he has done to the Tuskens. I think he feels that he has failed as a Jedi. His mother's death has made him see that he is not as powerful as he thought he was, and now he feels his needs to become more powerful, like he says at Shmi's funeral. I think that those feelings cause him to look for more and more power, which finally turns him to the Dark Side.

After his confession, Padme comforts him, instead of running away and calling the cops. He has been in love with her for over 10 years, and for the second time after he lost his mother, she comforts him.
One of the plotpoints of AOTC, and maybe of the PT, is that Anakin's attachments cause his downfall. But then again; those attachments, his love, are IMO what make him NOT evil. Anakin loves Padme, and at the end of ROTJ, he realizes he also loves Luke...which enables him to let go of the Dark Side, and to return to the light.

OK I hope this made sense...

 

I agree with you that Anakin is a sympathetic character and the only reason people think he is too dark is that they already know what will happen. Anakin in AOTC is very much like Luke in TESB. It's a period of emotional turmoil in his life, but in the end, he is still that good person that we saw in the beginning, only a bit scarred.
At the beginning of the next episode, I have no doubt that we will see a calmer Anakin who is much more in control of himself. Just like Luke in ROTJ. We will see the great starpilot and the cunning warrior, fear not.

I'd also like to point out that I think the friendship between him and Obi-Wan is portrayed beautifully. If you see AOTC through the eyes of one who's only seen TPM, you will see a close friendship that withstands differences in opinion like the one on Padmé's couch. They're just viewing the situation differently, that's all.
The scene on the balcony at night shows what I'm talking about. Obi-Wan is concerned about his friend and Anakin trusts him enough to let him know about his feelings for Padmé. He wants Obi-Wan to express his opinion on it, that's why he brings it up. A sign of true friendship.

 

Personally, I'd say that he's at a lukewarm stage at the end of AOTC, with hot being evil and cold being good.

 

I don't know about that. I think that if someone could view Anakin's life as a neutral spectator he would see an enslaved boy with no father who was taken from his mother only to be viewed upon as something dangerous and chaotic. In AOTC I get the feeling that noone really trusts Anakin, except maybe Obi-Wan and Amidala. Everybody treats him in fear because they cannot understand what he is, or maybe what he can be. This boy, he is only 18 in AOTC, has had the worst possible conditions while growing up and in a lot of ways he is at the end of his rope.

That does not make him more evil than good. He tells Amidala that he wants peace order and justice in the galaxy one way or the other. When he was a boy he wanted to free all the slaves on Tatooine.

I think that in the end of AOTC he is just a boy that wants to make the world a better place. The problem is that everybody else are happy with the way things are.Why leave the slaves?The republic was afraid the Hutts maybe? Why tolerate corrupted polititian when you can hand pick them and throw them out?

What would you do if you had the power to change the world , to make it better? In many ways I think that Vader still believed in that.He was never trully evil, he just did what he thought was best to visualize his dream.

Anakin is not evil, but nobody could understand how much goodness he had inside him.

 

Almost evil, at the least selfish. If not totally evil; considering that everything he does/says in the movie is in some way for himself, "Self" (Evil) vs "Selflessnes" (Good). He starts the movie that way and ends that way.

 

Well if 'I' walk down an alley at night and somebody is trying to rape a girl 'I' will stop him and 'I' do not tolerate cruelty to animals and 'I' am very hostile to any kind of manipulation because those things are opposite to 'MY' vision of how the world should be. Guess 'I' am going straight to Hell.

 

Actually, it seems like the council trusts him a bit more than Obi-Wan does.

BTW, I know a quote that fits perfectly into this topic: "Your focus determines your reality".
If you focus on the negative parts of Anakin, he becomes evil in your eyes. If you focus on the positive, he becomes good.
If you don't focus at all, he becomes a troubled, but good-hearted person.

 

I agree. I think your point of view is a bit better than mine

 

No, not better. Different

 

Interesting. I truly do believe Anakin is still good at the end of AotC. There is a parallel that runs through the trilogies:

TPM: Anakin purely good; ANH: Vader purely evil
AotC: Anakin starts to get conflicted, but still good; ESB: Vader starts to get conflicted, but still evil
RotS: Anakin turns to the Dark Side and becomes Darth Vader; RotJ: Anakin is redeemed and comes back to the good side

Just because Anakin used the Dark Side for one moment, I don't think that makes him evil. Look at what Luke does in RotJ - he uses the Dark Side in his battle against Darth Vader. Does this make him evil forever, destined to go to Jedi hell? Of course it doesn't. I think this is a spiritual idea - because someone does evil things, does that make them an evil person? Is it actually POSSIBLE for a person to be completely evil? I don't think it is, or if it is, it's very, very rare. For me, to be truly evil would be to lose all compassion, all love and all goodness in you - can someone who loves truly be evil? Palpatine and Vader are completely evil because they don't have those good qualities - they are truly extremes, psycholocial archetypes of all that is bad. Anakin isn't - he loves, he cares and does good things. Anakin expresses regret for what he did to the Tuskens, he knows what he did is wrong, and that makes a lot of difference. He hasn't turned to the Dark Side by the end of AotC, and he's still essentially a good person - just conflicted. Everything is set up for him to turn to the Dark Side, but it hasn't actually happened yet, and he's still redeemable at the end of AotC - I'm sure he wouldn't have turned were it not for Palpatine's lies. I truly believe that if TPM and AotC came out first, and we knew nothing about III-VI, you still would expect Anakin to be OK and not turn to the Dark Side in RotS.

 

Me too. I actually know that for a fact. NZPoe is going through an experiment with his ex girlfriend, who grew up somewhere in Africa and has never seen Star Wars before. She has seen pictures of some characters, but she didn't know anything about the story.
He first gave her info about the GFFA, hyperspace, the Force and stuff. Then he had her read all the Star Wars litterature that he has that takes place before TPM. THEN she got to see TPM and after that, it was the litterature between TPM and AOTC. All chronologically. Now she has seen AOTC and is probably reading a Clone War novel as we speak. NZ won't let her near the OT until she has seen ROTS. She has promised to keep herself unspoiled about what happens later. She totally loves Star Wars by now and regarding Anakin:
She is very excited about the difficulties he is having and can't wait to see him overcome them. So there it is; the proof that it's not at all obvious that Anakin will turn. Since she doesn't know, she doesn't notice all those little hints that are obvious to us. She will probably rewatch the movies later and discover stuff like that and that will make it all the more worthwhile.
To this girl, Anakin isn't a doomed hero. He is just a hero.

 

He's more confused and conflicted than evil. He still wants to do what is right. Problem is, he has a bit of trouble distinguishing right from wrong. His arrogance doesn't help matters any.

 

Well if 'I' walk down an alley at night and somebody is trying to rape a girl 'I' will stop him and 'I' do not tolerate cruelty to animals and 'I' am very hostile to any kind of manipulation because those things are opposite to 'MY' vision of how the world should be. Guess 'I' am going straight to Hell.

Nice attempt to use word play to twist meaning. But you understood what I meant, and you're example is false.

If you risk your own life while saving the girl, you have thought of the girl, and not yourself. Others placed higher than you're own well-being. Selfless.

However, if you only saved the girl to get a date with the girl; then really your motivation stems on behalf of your own well-being. Selfish.

If you are hostile to people because things don't fit in your vision, then 'yes' that is Selfish.

 

Being selfish is a flaw, but it's not 'evil'. If that were the case 99% of the world people be 'evil' when push comes to shove.

His lust for power at this point is not 'evil', he wants to help the people that he cares about. If being desperate to have that is 'evil' than 99% of the world would be 'evil' when push comes to shove.

His sense of superiority is definitely one to take note of, his tendency towards anger too but he can control it (mostly) at this point (case of his mother is an extreme).

His view on the Republic isn't evil, heck that would make nearly 50% of America 'evil'. It's when he starts using power to enforce that thought (Vader) that he's evil.

His frustration isn't 'evil', if frustration in a 19-year-old is a sign of evil - then the world is doomed.

Anakin in Clones has ONE act/point where he's 'evil' and that's slaughtering the Camp, and i'm not saying i would've or wouldn't have done that - because the mere thought alone of being in that position with those oppurtunities are a haunting thought.

Anakin is a good man who has his flaws - Clones Anakin starts that way and ends that way.

 

Being selfish is a flaw, but it's not 'evil'.

Very true. Both Han and Lando start their character-arcs as selfish and become compassionate - but would you say that Han in ANH and Lando in ESB are evil characters when we first meet them?

I think selfishness is a flaw that all of us have at some points in our life. The difference with Anakin is that he's in a position that requires a lot of responsibility and dedication, and he has incredible power - it's not a good thing to be selfish and emotionally attached when you have such power. Anakin has the flaws all of us have, but we don't have his power. If we start believing that by gaining more power, we can shape the world the way WE want it, that's the road to the Dark Side. Anakin uses the Force to serve himself, rather than to serve the Force and the greater good. That's the difference with Luke - he's compassionate, and learns to be unselfish. His attachment to his sister almost causes him to use the power of the Dark Side to kill his father - but he doesn't do it, he refuses to use that power. Anakin finally sees the compassion and selflessness of Luke at the very end, and commits the most selfless act anyone could, by sacrificing himself for someone else.

 

99% is an extreme. But I think if you really sat down with all the world's religions and all forms of text that we have... and Lucas' own quotes; you find that "Self" vs "Selfless" is the drawing line between good and evil. If that puts the majority of people in the corner of "evil", then perhaps society needs to reevaluate itself.

The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion - of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.
'-George Lucas, "The Mythology of Star Wars," Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

Self vs Selfless

His lust for power at this point is not 'evil', he wants to help the people that he cares about.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Clearly his want to help the people HE cares about is a selfish motivation - and as such - even Lucas classifies it as evil.

The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time.
- George Lucas, AOTC commentary

His want for power, no matter the intention, is dark. Self.

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
--George Lucas

Self vs Selfless

Star Wars is made up of many themes. ... Then there is the lesson of friendship and symbiotic relationships, of your obligations to your fellow- man, to other people that are around you.

Selfless.

Again and again throughout all myth and religion. Those who act on behalf of others regardless of their own well being (selfless) are seen as good. And those characters who are evil always make decisions based on their own desires.

It isn't a matter of how that might classify people in the world today, it simply is. If Jesus were alive today or the Buddha, I guarantee that they would say 99% of the people were not living righteously. If that definition makes 50% of America 'evil', then perhaps America needs to reevaluate its standards. I personally would say that most people (Han and Lando included) are conflicted. That peoples' good and bad traits are in a tug of war, and sometimes the 'selfishness' overwhelms the compassion, but hopefully, love and compassion will overcome their own desire.

 

Those who act on behalf of others regardless of their own well being (selfless) are seen as good.

Anakin throwing himself in front of Kenobi, putting himself in a fight with an extremely powerful forcer, Anakin freeing his mother, Anakin going after Kenobi at the Coruscant chase, Anakin going after Kenobi when he's caught, Anakin rescueing Padme all through the Arena battle.

Selfishness is him wanting Padme to love him because he's hurting for example.

 

In the duel, he did act selfless to save Obi-Wan.

But all of the other examples revolve around his desire for Padme including going to Geonosis. Every one.

 

Lucas never said that Anakin is dominated by selfishness, though. Yes, he has traits that in themselves might be classified as evil, but that does not make him an evil person. If it did, then most characters in Star Wars would be evil.
If you are 100% selfish, then yes, you are evil. If you are 100% selfless, you are good. Inbetween? Human.

 

But all of the other examples revolve around his desire for Padme including going to Geonosis. Every one.

He wanted to go after his mother WAY before Padme came into the picture, his duty now just allowed him to 'slip away' from the Jedi - especially after Padme rejected him, in which case he probably didn't care about his 'order' anymore (THAT'S another form of selfishness).

He went after Obi-Wan in Coruscant because....Obi-Wan would've died had he not gone, Padme had nothing to do with that. Him jumping out his speeder and taking his chase to the extreme - THAT was selfishness to 'get' Padme's attacker.

He saved Padme in Geonosis because the Nexu and the Droids would've killed her - not to get 'on her good side''.

He went after Obi-Wan to Geonosis because 'he's like his father', it's very clear that staying on Tatooine would've had the exact same effect on him as not being able to go save his mother, so Padme helps him - he's actually being selfless here because he want's to obey his orders, Padme's being selfless by allowing him to 'loop' around those orders.

 

No, Padme made the decision to go save Obi-Wan. Padme acts 'selflessly.'

And, his decision around his mom is directly attribute to his inability to let go and his desire for his own personal feelings - Lucas himself says so as evidenced by the AOTC commentary.

And whilst saving Padme in the arena, again - because of his desire for her. He constantly bucks his duty - which is based on the GREATER good - based on his personal love for her. In Gunship. On Coruscant. On Naboo. The whole movie.

Inbetween? Human.

I agree with that.

That's why you have to look at decision to action to decision to action... because we all act both selfishly and selflessly.

 

He constantly bucks his duty - which is based on the GREATER good - based on his personal love for her. In Gunship. On Coruscant. On Naboo. The whole movie.

That's because it's a love story.
We haven't seen ROTS yet and therefore, none of us has the whole picture. I believe, though, that he won't be very selfish at all for the first hour or so. Again, remember that AOTC was a particularly difficult period for him and he wasn't at all like that in TPM.

 

And, his decision around his mom is directly attribute to his inability to let go and his desire for his own personal feelings - Lucas himself says so as evidenced by the AOTC commentary.

Yes - those are factors, but if you really think he didn't just want his mother to stop hurting - then....damn

Those aren't evil traits, they lead to him performing evil acts - that is true.

But theres realistically only ONE occasion where he can be considered "evil" - thats the slaughter.

 

He's more confused and conflicted than evil. He still wants to do what is right. Problem is, he has a bit of trouble distinguishing right from wrong. His arrogance doesn't help matters any.

This is perhaps the best description of Anakin I have heard in a long time.