Saga Is Captain Antilles really in Episode IV?

Now, canonically speaking, of course I know he is. This is him:



But as many have noted, this man looks nothing like Raymus Antilles as he is portrayed in Episode III, nor does he appear to be remotely the right age:



It's something that's always been pretty perplexing. Why would Lucas cast someone who looks so inappropriate as a younger version of the character from Episode IV? My answer: Because Lucas never intended for these characters to be the same.

Let's look at the evidence. First, let's see how the script for Episode IV identifies this character:

The evil Darth Vader stands amid the broken and twisted bodies
of his foes. He grabs a wounded Rebel Officer by the neck as
an Imperial Officer rushes up to the Dark Lord.

IMPERIAL OFFICER
The Death Star plans are not in the
main computer.

Vader squeezes the neck of the Rebel Officer, who struggles
in vain.

VADER
Where are those transmissions you
intercepted?

Vader lifts the Rebel off his feet by his throat.

VADER
What have you done with those plans?

REBEL OFFICER
We intercepted no transmissions.
Aaah... This is a consular ship.
Were on a diplomatic mission.

VADER
If this is a consular ship... were
is the Ambassador?

The Rebel refuses to speak but eventually cries out as the
Dark Lord begins to squeeze the officer's throat, creating a
gruesome snapping and choking, until the soldier goes limp.
Vader tosses the dead soldier against the wall and turns to
his troops.

VADER
Commander, tear this ship apart until
you've found those plans and bring
me the Ambassador. I want her alive!

The stormtroopers scurry into the subhallways.


As you can see, he is merely identified as a generic "Rebel Officer," this despite Captain Antilles being referenced by name later in the script.

The novelization agrees with the script. This man is identified as one of several Rebel officers whom Vader has captured. Vader chooses this man from the group, seemingly at random, to interrogate as to the whereabouts of the Princess. Here's how he responds as he's being strangled:

"Only...the Commander knows."

So clearly this is not the man in charge of this whole shebang. He is indeed just a Rebel officer. This makes sense, as I never understood why the captain of a starship would be dressed in combat troop regalia.

One more piece of evidence? Lucas's original plan was to cast Denis Lawson (better known as Wedge Antilles) as Captain Raymus Antilles in Episode III, the idea (presumably) being that he was some older relation of Wedge, maybe even his father. So clearly, if Lucas was considering such a thing, there's no way he ever considered the Captain Antilles in Episode III to be the same character as the Rebel whom Vader strangles in Episode IV.

The identification of this character in Episode IV as "Captain Antilles" was simply an extrapolation by the EU which did not reflect Lucas's intentions. That's the reason for the discrepancy. They weren't ever supposed to be the same character!

 

its a bit like the old man on rebel base is not Leias father either. interesting

 

also is there a reason why the droids are not shown on the ship at the end of Rogue one? Are they somewhere else on the ship with their master Captain Antilles.. or is he infact still on Yavin? Does wedges father canonically die..?

 

I don't see how they "look nothing alike", nor how he supposedly doesn't "look the right age". The similarities are decent enough for pictures from completely different angles. Add that one picture shows the role 18 years prior to the other, and I don't see any issue. The age difference between the actors at the respective time the movies were shot is about 13 years. That's close enough to portray a difference of 18 years for a middle aged man.

I also wouldn't take what the novelization says to have much of a meaning at all. It said plenty of things that don't fit to what is shown in the movie or mentioned later on. It also has the same issue of not strictly adhering to what Lucas had in mind than any following EU-material. I don't see why you would somehow count one piece of EU as closer to what Lucas intended then the other.

Quite frankly, I very much doubt that Lucas cared one bit either way. Just like with Coruscant, he took something he liked and ran with it. There was a rebel officer not specified in ANH, there also was the name of Captain Antilles dropped in the movie. Lucas than took what people had considered to be true, and added it in ROTS, because it works as a nod to ANH. Same with offering the role to Denis Lawson. These are minor side-characters, it didn't really matter if they were the same person or not. If Lawson accepts the role, they are not the same, if he doesn't, maybe they are the same role, or maybe it never really mattered to Lucas one way or the other.

I mean, Vader also wasn't Anakin Skywalker at that point. Stating that "there's no way he ever considered the Captain Antilles in Episode III to be the same character as the Rebel whom Vader strangles in Episode IV." certainly doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you consider the complete overhaul of characters he did while making the movies. If drastic changes could be made to the main characters, then he most definately would consider any sort of change to side-characters who barely spoke a line. Somehow I doubt that there was anything remotely close to a "true intent" for the role of Captain Antilles at any point.

 

They look nothing alike. I don't know what to say beyond that, lol. The actor in Episode III isn't exactly lacking in distinctive facial characteristics.

If Lucas didn't care either way, that means they weren't intended to be the same character. But I don't see how you can say he didn't care when he specifically included such a minor character, by name, in Episode III. I think he knows who he's supposed to be.

e: And the line in the novelization I referenced comes from the revised fourth draft script by Lucas:

REBEL OFFICER
Only… only the commander knows…

 

Agreed. Considering how different Hayden Christensen looks from Sebastian Shaw, I don't think Lucas ever really cast for "resemblance to the previous actor playing the character".

For that matter, does Ewan MacGregor much resemble Alec Guinness at the same age?

 

I'd say so but in the context of it being what he wanted it to be as opposed to what other wanted it to be.

As ever whatever anyone else says about what's going on in his movies is largely irrelevant to him. Lucas could have easily had the Tantive IV in ROTS and had an obviously younger version of the Rebel Officer seen at the start of ANH. Instead it's a different ship that look similar (especially the interior) with a Captain Antilles that is clearly not the Rebel officer at the start of ANH.

I don't see how that applies at all. If anything if makes the exact point that in that case Lucas did change it because SS looked nothing at all like Anakin.

Yes. Seems more likely that for Lucas we had never seen Captain Antilles before so now he shows him.

The point he doesn't care about is whether anyone else wants to believe it or not but instead go with something that other people came up with.

 

I believe the Wook also makes the point that Antilles is a very common last name in the SW universe - similar to Smith or Jones in ours. If that's so then they could have the same name and not be related at all.

 

He very specifically did. There's behind-the-scenes footage of him painstakingly comparing headshots with casting directors. Jake Lloyd was cast for his resemblance to Mark Hamill, and Hayden Christensen was cast for his resemblance to both Mark Hamill and Jake Lloyd. Sebastian Shaw wasn't that relevant because his face was obscured behind layers of heavy make-up and prosthetics, and he was probably already planning to replace his ghost with whomever he cast.

Ewan McGregor was definitely cast for his resemblance to Alec Guinness.

Meanwhile, I think the fact that Lucas was fully planning to cast a 56-year-old man to play Captain Antilles is a pretty good indication that he didn't consider this a character we had already seen.

Uh, yes?

 

MacGregor's face looks broader and his chin less sharp.

Officer Strangled By Vader has his hair hidden by the helmet and his chin hidden by the chin strap. So the difference in appearance isn't that great - the costume partly hides it.


Regarding the Tantive III - at the time, it was portrayed as being the same ship despite the different appearance (the novelization was explicit about this) - rationalised by the EU as it having a refit. Only later was it retconned into being a different ship.

 

Yes, Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness are not literally the same human being. Glad we got to the bottom of that.

The actor from Episode III and the actor from Episode IV do not remotely resemble each other in any way. The Episode III actor has a long face and a very defined jawline. The actor in Episode IV has a small face and a weak jawline. They have no other facial resemblance. When they cast an actor in Rogue One to match the actor in Episode IV, this is what we got:



That is what a close resemblance looks like. But it looks nothing at all like this man:



Seriously guys, I'm legitimately borderline face blind, but this wouldn't be a hard one even for me. Come now.

Well, that's the thing. The character in Episode IV is never identified as being named Antilles except in spin-off material.

 

The "spin-off material" was consistent about calling him Colton Antilles, at least (referencing the novelization and the early drafts having 3PO say "Our first master was Captain Colton"). For example, in the reference book C-3PO: Tales of the Golden Droid.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/C-3PO:_Tales_of_the_Golden_Droid

After the release of Episode III, the first work to refer to the captain of Leia's ship in ANH as Captain Raymus Antilles (and explicitly state that he was the guy Vader choked) was Star Wars Journal: Captive To Evil.

Why make him the captain of the ship? Conservation of detail. He has lots of pips on his badge, and is the only officer on the ship seen with as many pips as the senior officers at the Rebel Base. Makes sense that Vader would try and get information out of the highest-ranking guy he can find.

 

I might be wrong about the order of events. The listed publication date for Captive to Evil is 1998 - which suggests that it's the reverse - first the name Captain Raymus Antilles was introduced for "the guy Vader choked" and then the name appeared in ROTS - in the credits.

So - Lucas didn't invent the name "Raymus Antilles" - the EU did, and then Lucas imported it into his movies - just as with "Coruscant".

 

They could be different people and both be named Raymus Antilles.
If they are the same person, he clearly had some work done on his face. Possibly following a wampa attack.

 

How could Lucas hire Hayden Christensen to play Anakin? He looks NOTHING like Sebastian Shaw.

 

Because Lucas is from the future and he knew that Hayden would transform into Sebastian Shaw and then go back in time to film his scenes for ROTJ, in order to prevent a TIME PARADOX

 

Lucas didn't import the name "Raymus Antilles" anywhere. The name "Raymus" appears neither in the Episode III film nor the script. He is simply referred to as "Captain Antilles."

The name "Raymus" was applied to the Episode III character by tie-in material because that same material decided on its own initiative that these were the same character. Lucas did not adopt the name himself at any point, and therefore its use anywhere else is not evidence of anything regarding his intent.

I suppose it isn't relevant at all that there's absolutely no other indication in the first place that the character in Episode III is even supposed to be the character in Episode IV, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I'm not aware of any controversy that the character referred to as "Anakin Skywalker" in the Episode VI film and script is indeed intended to be the character referred to as "Anakin Skywalker" in the prequels. I think you'll find that Lucas altered the unmasked Anakin's appearance (giving him blue eyes and removing his eyebrows) in order to make his appearance more closely match that of Anakin as we last saw him in the prequels. I think if you investigate you'll also find that Lucas completely replaced Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen's likeness when he appears without make-up that obscures his features.

This, to me, seems like evidence that Lucas was actually very attentive to ensuring that characters who appeared later played by other actors resembled the original actors who played them as closely as possible. It strikes me as notable that in this case, where there is no indication anywhere that the two characters were meant to be the same by Lucas, Lucas appears to have made absolutely no efforts whatsoever--first casting a man in his fifties, and then casting an actor who blatantly bears not even a slight resemblance to the Episode IV actor.

I would also remind everybody that I am not saying you cannot consider the two to be the same in your own personal canon. I was simply pointing out what I thought to be an interesting bit of historical trivia that I have never seen discussed, using what to me seems like very compelling evidence. I am not sure to what end those who are steadfastly denying this to be the case are doing so.

 

There's a reason why lists of credits elsewhere say "Captain Raymus Antilles" rather than just "Captain Antilles" though.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0121766/fullcredits

And why you yourself refer to him as "Raymus Antilles" rather than just "Captain Antilles" in your very first post in the thread.

Sometimes, tie-in material does reflect what Lucas is at least "OK with".

 

Seeing as the edit window has expired:

I'm willing to take Leland Chee's word for it. Keeping track of continuity is his job.


https://web.archive.org/web/2010032...rs.com/thread.jspa?threadID=222689&start=1185

Date Posted: Nov 28, 2005 10:50 AM
This message was edited by Leland Y Chee on Nov 28, 2005 10:52 AM
Is Raymus Antilles choked by Vader in ANH? Or is it his son, Colton?

Yes, Raymus is the Captain Antilles who Vader strangles aboard the Tantive IV. We now know that Captain Colton is actually the Alderaanian pilot played by Jeremy Bulloch in Revenge of the Sith.

He wouldn't be saying that if Lucas had said that the officer strangled in ANH is a random officer and not "Captain Antilles".

It's not just "personal canon" that says it - it's Legends canon and Disney canon. "Lucas's own headcanon" is impossible to prove, so not worth worrying about.

 

He didn't specify which Raymus Antilles he was referring to, though

 

I tend to take the approach that the whole reason "Only the Commander knows" was cut, was to identify the character as the Commander rather than as a minor officer - so that 3PO's "Our last master was Captain Antilles" works better.

Combine with Bail's delivering the droids to Captain Antilles, to turn it into a call-back.

 

IMDb is like Wikipedia. Anyone can edit it. It has nothing to do with anything official. The character is not credited as "Raymus Antilles" in the end credits of Episode III. He is credited as "Captain Antilles" just as in the script.

George Lucas has nothing to do with what's on IMDb.com.

George Lucas had no direct contact with Leland Chee. He didn't care about the EU or its continuity, nor did he know much about it.

“I did not have direct contact with George about Star Wars continuity."
–Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

“I didn’t have any direct contact with George about Star Wars. - I would see some notes based on the interviews or the meetings. But I did not have direct contact with George about Star Wars continuity." –Leland Chee 2018

“No, GWL has not given directives as to how things are entered in the Holocron.” –Leland Chee, 2004.12.17

 

Whether or not Lucas is aware of the name "Raymus" doesn't really matter.

What matters is - did he think the "choked guy" was the captain of the ship?
Did he think the "choked guy" was the guy 3PO was talking about when he said "Our last master was Captain Antilles".
And when he put the scene into ROTS:

Captain Antilles?
Yes, your Highness?
I'm placing these droids in your care. Treat them well. Clean them up. Have the protocol droid's mind wiped.

was he thinking of 3PO's "Our last master was Captain Antilles" comment when he put that in?

I'm inclined to say "yes" to all 3 of those. It simply makes the most sense in terms of conservation of detail.

 

This thread cracks me up. Han is played by a different actor in Solo and he looks different too, but it still works. Antillies is an extremely minor character. So minor in fact, that they didn't care that he looked different because most people wouldn't care either.

 

Concerning age - Rohan Nichol was 27 when he played "ROTS Captain Antilles" (filmed in 2003) and Peter Geddis was 39 when he played "ANH Captain Antilles" (filmed in 1976). 19 year in-universe time gap, 12 year age gap between actors instead of 19 years.

Considering exactly the same was true for Rogue One (filmed in 2015, 12 years after ROTS was filmed in 2003) - I don't see it as a major problem.

And, until this was retconned in the newcanon, Wedge is played by two different actors in the same movie - the script labelling all lines by the two different actors "Wedge Antilles".

Next to that, the Captain Antilles of ROTS looking a little too old to be the Captain Antilles in ANH is minor.