TV Discussion Is creating life a Dark Side power ?

A question that I see asked relatively frequently is whether in the SW universe there is something intrinsically evil about creating life by... unconventional ways.

We saw the topic touched in the PT, and now it is re-proposed more extensively in the Acolyte.

The saga seems to give for granted that creating life with the Force is equivalent to somehow play with nature in a dangerous and sinister way.

Though, how does this really work? Are the negative effects inevitable?

 

They ought to explain that they "create" life by stealing it from elsewhere (sacrifice).

 

I think Dark siders are just willing to use for the force in unnatural ways. While the Jedi seek to protect the force and use it as guided.

 

The force is the force. Dark or light is really just the inner emotion/motivation the user is drawing upon to exercise their control of the force. The human intent. I think life creation is more taboo for moral reasons for the Jedi than intrinsically dark. There are people here that would know better than me but iirc the theory of Anakin’s creation was a force response to Sith manipulation. I guess that opens the door for the question of whether Anakin was inherently evil from creation but I like to believe otherwise.

 

The Jedi view the Force is something of a ally, or a partnership. There's a natural give and take, obey and command, with mutual benefits. The Sith view it as something to control or to harness for their own extreme selfish desires. There is no partnership.

Perhaps the Jedi could create life using the Force, technically, but i'm guessing this would be viewed as an abuse of that force or relationship. It's just not something they're interested obtaining. It would be them tipping the scales in their own favor, to create life, or another force user. They believe if a person is going to be force sensitive, the Force will deem it that way, and its not up to them to decide that.

The evil part comes in the inherent nature then of what a force user would want with creating a life, or an extremely powerful force user, this way. Probably nothing totally good. Probably something very selfishly driven or motivated. Probably something for evil purposes.

 

Within the Jedi and general moral universe of Star Wars? Yes. Copy and pasting from other thread:

 

To create life with the force is to bend the force to your will. A lightsider wouldn't do that. Regardless of if there is sacrifice involved. Although I would assume there is some sort of trade off for it.

 

I think according to the creator/s of the prequels, yes, attempting to create life is inherently a dark side act. It's an effort to grasp at control over the fundamental realities of being - the cycle of life and death - and subvert the good and natural balance of the universe. Someone who is in sync with the Force is accepting of the fact that life and death come and go in a way that is outside of their control and power.

Whether it's inherently evil in the view of the creatives involved in The Acolyte is an open question at this stage I think. Probably yes, but it's not explicit in the text as yet. There hasn't really been any definitive sense of the show's moral stance on Aniseya's actions.

 

Yeah there’s no need for a sacrifice (i.e. to create life you need to take another, as in GoT season one). The act of bending the force to your will to artificially create life is enough to place it in the Star Wars dark side camp. Power over life and death is a Sith thing, through and through. And this is a clear example of that.

 

Ever since 2005 I wondered what he meant by "he could even stop those he cared about from dying." like how does that connect to manipulating the midis to create life?

So I guess it means that it involves having some power over midis which is unnatural.

but who would he care about anyway? you can always get another apprentice.

 

what ..... nobody?



.

 

OK then.
The trouble i always had with that sentence is about what means "those he cared" for a Sith ?
Was Plagueis supposed to have a family? A pet? I always thought it was BS from Palpatine.
Also, 19 years ago, i read Palps meant stop people from dying ( the thing Anakin craved) not creating "new life".
But then Disney bought Lucasfilm ...

 

Palpatine is seducing Anakin. Who's primary fear is losing his love and he knows he is desperate to have the power to stop it from happening.

Palpatine is speaking about true power, but like all good salesmen, he knows his audience. He doesn't mention that the only person Plagueis, or any Sith for that matter, love is themselves. Which Anakin is already discovering as he's allowing his attachments to become full blown self serving obsessions.

First line is about making Anakin think he's powerful because he was created to become powerful. It's his destiny. The second line is about what other powers he could have if he chooses to be a Sith.

 

Why couldn’t Plagueis have loved ones? Most, if not all, of the biggest and most genocidal human monsters in world history had loved ones. Their evil lies in valuing only the lives of their loved ones, and nobody else’s (i.e. Anakin). Known as “amoral familism” in sociological terms. Palpatine didn’t seem to have any loved ones, true, but there’s no reason Plagueis couldn’t. Maybe he had a bunch of adorable little muunlings that he doted over. Wouldn’t make him any less evil.

 

Especially if he "loves" them in a possessive way - for the value they bring to him, rather than for their own dignity. Like the way you might love a an old keepsake, be furious if someone tried to take it to you, be willing to do a lot to keep it or fix it.

 

One of the most baffling things I've seen among the fandom in response to this show is a willful refusal to recognise the comically obvious romantic/sexual subtext of Qimir and Osha's scenes, because they apparently can't grasp the idea that evil people are capable of romantic love too.

 

Yeah. The most evil people are often ONLY capable of romantic or familial love, or love only for their small in-groups (likeminded or ethnically/ culturally similar people, etc). They have no love or compassion for people outside their in-groups, though, and particularly not groups they consider threatening to themselves and their in-groups. Which often translates into some emotional empathy, but no intellectual empathy. Sociopathy, essentially. In this context, sociopaths can love a partner or a friend or ethnic compatriots fiercely, while, if they have lots of power, visiting untold horrors on everyone outside those small boundaries.

In fact, I find the phenomenon of so many people only having compassion for their small in-groups to be one of the greatest sources of evil and oppression in the world. And I’d like to see Star Wars explore that more. Acolyte is a decent start in that direction. And how seemingly human and normal it was for Osha to turn is essential in portraying that. Because going evil, justifying evil, or resigning oneself to evil is actually quite normal and routine in much of human society. It’s not some demonic light-show of an initiation ceremony. There’s almost something mundane about Osha going to the dark side, which is deliberate. And I like that.

 

I think thetrouble has deeper.
First about the series, both Amandla Stenberger and Dafne Keen said Osha and Jecki had feelings for each other.
One interesting thing is how interpret Qimir's answer to Osha complain about him killing Jecki:
" And where did you expect that to go, if you can only love someone so far ?"
It can be understood he acknowledges there where feeling between the 2 at the same time he chalenges her about the the fact that platonic love is not enough and never would be satisfying cause it's not complete.
So in hindsight the complain about Qimir and Osha are more about she just "fall in love" with the dude that just murdered people she loved ( includes Yord).
But secondly, and more importantly: Disney made SW way too asexual.
Remmeber when Sabine crossed the universe to save Ezra jusst for friendship not sexual atraction?
Or when they scrapped all together Mara Jade and made Luke a weird celibatic dude ?
And here come what's troublesome: only dark siders seems to have sexual feeling ( Kylo towards Rey, Qimir and evil Osha) wich implies love and sexual atraction are "dark", sinfull, evil.
So it's not as if evil people can't love ( wich is debatable, let's not pretend) but that just evil people has feelings, got it ?

 

Qimir might have developed deeper feelings for Osha, but I'm not convinced she has fallen for him.

 

Sexual undertones, and attraction, yes. Outright lovey-dovey romance, not quite there yet.

I would agree that its possible that Qimir finds Osha romantically appealing. Going from one twin to the next. Although there's a strong bond between them, a partnership based on mutual desires, I'm not convinced that Osha is at that same page yet. Its possibly they get there next season, given that the director has hinted towards ETL in other works.

The reason why I'm more hesitant about any of this is is that the Sith are very selfish beings. They care only about themselves. That is their nature. Mae already knows full well who The Stranger was. She was terrified of him. Even as Qimir tried to console her and inspire her, she knew that her Master had a vicious truth to him.

Looking back at other famous love-bird Sith; Anakin didn't actually love Padme in the end. He loved himself and his powers first and foremost. He cared not about what Padme wanted for herself, her freedom, he cared only about how she affected him. He couldn't lose her. He needed to save her. His love became an obsession. And he needed to control everything in his life. (Which is what the Empire represents to the galaxy as well) That's not real love or a romance. it's the failure of one.

However, given that this show is more nuanced, we could see something new here. Qimir does seem to generally care about Osha. And - god - at least he's not a Kylo Ren type of thing, negging her and promising to murder her every chance he gets, all while she tries to save his soul because he had a dream they held hands one time. At least its not that. This feels like it could explore a more equal and mutual Sith partnership. Maybe its the first of its kind in SW.

That said, what makes it more interesting and digestible, is that LH has already said it's doomed, and likened it to Romeo and Juliet, and some other tragedies. I suspect that Plagueis might have some fun with this turn of events. It could be interesting if he manipulates events so that either kills themselves, or the other, before they even have a chance to try to take him down.

 

Qimir is a hypocrite. For all of his talk about about being alone sets you free, what he wants actually wants is a partner/friend. And Osha seems to be the perfect solution since she seems to mirror himself in many ways.

 

Exactly. I'm a genocidal human monster, and I love all of my gaming consoles and consider them loved ones

 

Yeah I don't get why it's a bad thing. Is it dangerous?